Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:03:40: Managing the family dynamic
00:05:54: Conversations as a leader
00:07:30: Having empathy with people’s situations
00:09:15: Explaining the “why not” as well as the “why”
00:12:51: Key leadership tip
00:13:54: Get all sides of the story
00:14:49: How to deal with gossip
00:16:53: Avoiding misinterpretation of messages
00:20:48: Internal conversations and looking after yourself
00:25:54: Simon’s pivotal conversation
00:31:47: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Wendy Harris: Thank you for listening to Making Conversations Count.  I’m your host, Wendy Harris, and your telemarketing trainer.  In this episode, we’re going to be Making Conversations about Being in the Trenches Count.

What’s new, Wendy Woo?  Well recently, in our conversation with Lorraine Ball, we asked you to be sending us some pictures of your pets at work, and what your thoughts are on having your pets at work.  Well, we’ve been absolutely inundated, there are just way too many people for me to mention here: Caroline, Nicole, Ian, Colin; those are just some names that have come off the top of my head.  So, we’re going to be putting a little collage together, and we’re going to splashing those pets at work all over our social channels.  Keep your eyes peeled.  Make sure you follow the show on your favourite channel, and then you can see yourself and tag yourself in.

I’m joined by guest, Simon Kardynal.  He’s spent a lifelong career in the military, and shares his story on moving up the ranks from foot soldier to leader.  On this journey to lead, he was put through school and the material he was presented with gave him an opportunity to consider his own path more closely.  Simon is a civilian now, and a notable podcast host in Canada, where he shares conversations on rapport-building in leadership.  Let’s introduce Simon.

So, with me in the studio, well not quite literally with me, because we’re still not able to do much of that at the moment, but joining me all the way from Canada is fellow podcaster, Simon Kardynal.  What struck me about Simon and his profile was how he had taken all that he had learnt from being in service for over 26 years.  So, Simon, please introduce yourself to the listeners.

Simon Kardynal: Hi, Wendy, thank you so much for having me on the show, I really appreciate that.  And one of the things you mentioned was that I was in the military for 26 years, just a shade over.  I actually started in the infantry, because I was a 19-year-old kid and it seemed like a fun adventure to get into.  Then, after five or six years, as one could imagine, that’s a very difficult lifestyle, so it was time to move into something else.

In the Canadian military, we have a programme whereby someone can actually change their trade and stay in the military, and then go onto something else.  So, I joined the Canadian Air Force, the Royal Canadian Air Force, and I became what was called an Aircraft Structures Technician.  It’s very, very loosely similar to autobody, but very, very loosely.

So, after a few years of doing that, this is actually where I started my formal leadership training, because I was getting promoted, etc, and in the air maintenance trades, you become something that’s called an Aircraft Maintenance Superintendent.  So, everyone who achieves the rank of Warrant Officer becomes this particular trade, because the theory is that it’s personnel management and I don’t need to be an expert in what the trade is, I need to be able to take care of the people inside the trade, at that institutional, strategic institutional level.  So, there’s that.

But as you had also mentioned, I’m a podcaster as well.  I actually retired from the military back in January of this year, 2021, and we’re going to talk some more about why I got to that point a little bit later on.  So, I’m a podcaster, I work for a company named Calian right now as a Contracts Manager.  The reason I do that is because I have a 19-year-old daughter and she wants to be a veterinarian and she has laser focus on that and as one could imagine, that is not cheap.  So, I have to continue to pay the bills.

Wendy Harris: Well, the consistency of an income is something that I’m pretty sure everybody can relate to.

Simon Kardynal: Oh, yes, bills have to be paid.

Wendy Harris: And 19-year-old girls don’t come cheap; I know, I’ve got two girls.  One’s in her 20s with her own home now, and the other one is the start of the teens.  So, yeah, I know what it’s like, they want for everything, don’t they, as well and they don’t realise that they’re wanting for everything; and as a parent, we want to give them everything too.

Simon Kardynal: Yeah, exactly.  And we have just the one, so it makes it easier for us to be able to do that, but there’s also the danger in that too, because it’s easier to do that.  So, where do you draw the line with stuff?

Wendy Harris: Well, you draw on all of that leadership that you got taught.  And I think there’s something in it that having a family is a little bit like having a little mini business anyway, because you’ve got people in the house that maybe you wouldn’t pick, you’re kind of thrown together just because you’re mum and dad and they’re the child; you each have to take on a role, there’s good cop bad cop, or the pushover.  So, I think you do have to approach things to keep that equilibrium and fairness within a family unit.

Simon Kardynal: It’s a challenge for sure, so it’s interesting.  And like you said, in that leadership dynamic, as leaders, you need to be able to adjust in the flow and read the situation.  And just because you handle something one way with a particular person at one time in the past in a certain way, doesn’t mean that’s going to work the next time.  You have to really be able to actively listen and see and hear and understand what’s happening around in the environment.  It’s tough, it’s a challenge.

Wendy Harris: The thing is as well, if you treat them exactly the same, then you’re assuming that they haven’t learnt anything and grown from the previous situation.  That could also backfire on you, can’t it?  Tell me more about the sorts of conversations that you’ve had to have as a leader to get to the desired outcome.

Simon Kardynal: That’s an excellent question, and I draw a lot of my experiences from when I was an instructor teaching basic training; because in that moment, I was the first of what’s called a Senior Non-commission Member, and it’s when you really start being in charge of groups of people, having that direct contract, in larger than small to teams of two to four. 

In this particular case, I was a section commander, and I would be in charge of anywhere between 20 to 15 people, and then you get promoted to other roles, not in rank, and you’re in charge of 60 people, so that matters.  And the interesting thing about places like basic training is, the idea of it is not to make soldiers, the idea is actually just to teach someone what it means to be in the Canadian Military or the British Military or the United States Military.  The basic crux, the goal of basic training is the same, to give someone an understanding of what it means to do that.

The challenge with that though is, when you’re having these types of conversations with these folks is to remember that even though they’re wearing the uniform now, they’re still in essence a civilian, because they don’t really understand what they’re getting into, even if they were in cadets, or if they had family in the military before, it’s different to have their own personal experience. 

So, when they’re having these types of challenges or you have to have some type of disciplinary or administrative conversation with them, as I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing to think of is to understand the situation that you’re in, have a quick look around, make sure you’re not just making a decision based off of what you’re seeing in the moment, what you’re hearing in the moment, think about the whole thing.

The other thing that I try to do, and it’s difficult sometimes, is to have empathy for someone else’s experiences.  Just because I don’t agree with them or I don’t like what’s happening, doesn’t mean I can’t respect that person’s going through something.  And I think it’s important for all leaders to keep that empathetic thought in the back of their mind when they’re speaking and making any type of decision.

Wendy Harris: I think you’re right, Simon, that often leaders, certainly the imagery of being in the military, is that you’ve got one boss, his word goes, what he says, you do; and to an extent, it is about following orders, but it’s also got to be about them being better people, because if they’re a better person they can be a better soldier.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  And when I was going through the military basic training was way back in 1994, and it was still very much that transactional style leadership, “Turn Left”.  It wasn’t a conversation, it wasn’t a discussion about it, I just turned left.  That’s just a very basic example I’m using, but more often than not, it wasn’t a discussion about why something was happening, but keeping in mind in 1994, the internet was barely alive, it was the military and it was very stereotypically macho and you just did what you were told and that was the end of it.

However, flash forward to 2021, getting information is so easy and it’s so quick and it’s literally a Google click away.  So, people can get the why of something and it’s been a challenge for the militaries, and I think large organisations as well, to understand the value, not just the importance, but the value of explaining the why to someone.  Now, if we don’t provide that, they’re just going to go get it, and it will be the first internet search that comes up.

I will say, sometimes it’s not appropriate to give the why or there’s no time to deliver that, but someone could even say, “I can’t explain why right now, you just need to do what I’m telling you to do and then we’ll get there, but right now this has to get done”.  That’s okay too, but again it’s understanding the environment that you’re in.

Wendy Harris: And that comes down to a lot of the trust between people, doesn’t it, to trust that you can follow that instruction and that you’ll be okay in whatever scenario, whether that be in a military, or even in a corporate environment.  My dad always used to say to me, “I’ll tell you not to do something, but I’ll always tell you why.  And if you still go ahead and do it, at least you’ll understand what the ramifications are going to be”. 

I think that’s really important, because we were talking earlier about being parents, you can tell your children, “Don’t take drugs, don’t drink alcohol, don’t have underage sex”, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to listen to us.  We can explain the why not to do all of those things, but once they’ve tried it and the experience isn’t good, then they can put their trust back into you, because you’re not just telling them because you’re their mum or dad, or you’re their boss.

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  And it’s tough when we’re proven right to not be, “Well, I told you that was a bad idea”; it’s challenging.  But one of the things I’ve found as a parent is that, a few years ago, I think of an example of that.  So, I had been talking to my daughter many, many times about, “When you get your own job…”, because she was always coming to us, like children do, and say, “I want to buy this, I want to buy that”, or whatever, and I said, “Well, listen, you got a job, you’re on your own.  You’re buying your own phone.  I’ll help you as much as I can for sure, but we’re going to start building you with some responsibilities”.

So, she went and got a job and she was working the job, didn’t really like the job, because it was a picker at Walmart, I think.  And then all of a sudden, she had to go pay her cell phone bill that month, and it was the first time she’d had to pay the bill.  She realised that that was half of her first paycheque and she came to me and she’s like, “Dad, remember when you were telling me about how, when you start getting paid and you have bills and you’re going to have to start making choices about what you want to do versus what you need to do with your money?  I thought I understood, but I get it”.

Right away, I had a big grin on my face, and she could hear me churning in the back of my head that I was sitting there like, “I really want to say, ‘I told you so'”, but I didn’t, I held that back, I said, “Yeah, these are the types of things in life you’re going to figure out”, etc, the usual type of conversation.  But the experience of getting to those points is invaluable; and as leaders, it’s striking a balance of letting someone stumble and knowing when that’s okay to do that and when sometimes we just can’t let the stumble happen.  It’s a tough balance.  I think most things in leadership are a balance of some type.

Wendy Harris: I get it and I quite often say that balance, it’s like those scales, isn’t it, that they swing one way or another, but ultimately there is still always that rod down the middle that stays static, central, it’s very grounded, and that’s what you have to put your trust in to bring that balance back into kilter.

Simon Kardynal: Yeah, absolutely, help them find the middle ground and then guide them along that path, understanding that the pendulum is going to swing to the left and right sometimes, and that’s okay; roll with the punches, understand the environment and things will be okay.

Wendy Harris: So, anybody that’s starting out in business right now then, Simon, those young entrepreneurs, or even those people that are in business and have been around for a long time, what would your number one tip be to help them along their leadership journey?

Simon Kardynal: So, I think I’ve got a bit of a two-pronged answer.  One part of it, we just spoke about, is explain the why of things to people.  In the podcast that I have, the Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front, one of the common themes that constantly keeps coming up is that people need to understand that why of things, because that information is so easy to get. 

If we don’t provide that, the first thing that’s going to happen, they’ll go to the internet, and the first internet hit that comes up, that’s going to be the truth.  Whether or not it is the truth doesn’t matter.  So, if you have the time, explain the why of things; because, as you have mentioned, that builds the trust.  And if you can’t, someone, the team generally, will be more likely to be open to the understanding that we might not be able to provide that right away. 

With the idea of getting the why of things, when you’re a leader, and this is the other half of this answer, it’s very, very important to make sure that the leader gets all the sides of the story before they go and make any type of decision.  I understand that sometimes, things have to happen quickly; but more often than not, we have time to actually sit down and figure out both or all aspects of something that’s going on. 

This is especially important if you’re having to have a difficult conversation, you’re hearing gossip in the workplace, whatever.  If something is difficult, or there are very diametrically opposed opinions on something, there’s a middle ground and more often than not, it’s a lack of communication.  But getting all that information, taking that time, being patient will definitely help people moving forward.  And again, that builds trust.  It shows that the leader is thoughtful in taking everything into consideration and ensuring everyone is being heard.

Wendy Harris: I think you’re right there, that there are always two sides to the story.  I think you’ve kind of touched on that there’s sometimes three and four, because if there is gossip, that can really add fuel to the fire.  If there is gossip, how do you handle putting the flame out on that?  I’ve found that’s been a really toxic environment for many people that would want the answer to that.  Should they themselves be putting that fire out, or should it come from the top?

Simon Kardynal: Again, I think a part of that has to come with understanding the environment and how it’s evolving.  Myself, my kneejerk reaction is to sit everyone down that’s involved in this gossip and say, “Okay, let’s hash this out.  We’re hearing these different things, let’s get this out there”, but that aggressive approach might not work.  It might not work with the people, it might not work in the situation.

So, my recommendation would be to take a little bit of time, not necessarily take in the information because it is gossip, but try and understand the whole situation.  And then, if it’s appropriate, my number one recommendation then would be to sit down with everyone and say, “Okay, this is what I’m hearing, what’s going on?” especially if it’s gossip that’s toxic, or it’s damaging to someone.  It’s a good idea to get that out, maybe talk to each person individually to get the whole picture, and then decide if it’s a good idea to bring people together, who knows?

The interesting thing about gossip, my experiences have been that quite often than not, there’s a lot of information that’s not being said, and that’s what’s generating whatever that particular piece of information might be.

Wendy Harris: Right, that subtext, isn’t it?  I sent an email today that was like, “Look, we’re about to have the holidays, I’m pretty sure that nothing’s going to get done this side of it, so let’s pick it up afterwards”, and I immediately got a call going, “I know you were chasing me”, and I was like, “No, I was actually saying I haven’t go the time to do this myself now, so don’t worry about it”.  It’s worth noting that there are two ways to interpret that subtext.

Simon Kardynal: Oh, very much so, especially with emails and text messages.  The ability for people to read into what they want to hear really matters, because you and I could read a sentence in the exact same email and get two entirely different interpretations out of that.  It’s how we choose to put the inflexion on certain words when we’re reading them inside our minds, and that completely changes how things are heard, for all intents and purposes; it’s challenging.

Wendy Harris: So true, Simon, and really why I love picking up the phone.

Simon Kardynal: You and I both.

Wendy Harris: Also, if it’s misunderstood in written communication, then to write back means that you’ve still not got an understanding and the response still might be misunderstood.  So, just nip it in the bud, get straight to the point.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  In the military, everyone has email, and when I was in the military, all of the emails were very similar.  I was almost famous for how sterile my emails were, “Good day, I require this [etc] Master Warrant Officer, Simon Kardynal”, and away it would go.  Didn’t give it a second thought about it, because that’s the environment I lived in.  And then, when I joined this new job, I was doing my stuff and I started sending out my emails, and again the same thing, “Good day, I require this [etc] Simon Kardynal”, and away it would go.

But I knew in my mind that I needed to soften these emails for these civilians I was working with, because I still had that mindset at the time.  So, what I was doing, at the end of it, I was putting, “Thank you very much, have a good day, Simon”! 

Wendy Harris: That was your attempt?

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  So, on one of the days very early on, I got a phone call from my boss saying, “Okay, Simon, we need to talk about this.  Your emails are a little more tense, you kind of need to soften that”, and I was genuinely surprised, I was like, “What are you talking about?  I told everyone to have a good day”.

Wendy Harris: “I have”!

Simon Kardynal: “What is the problem here?”  So now, it’s like, “Hello so-and-so, how are you today?  I hope your day has been…” and in the beginning, I still thought, “This is a waste of my time”.  But now, months later, I understand the value in building that type of a rapport.  And I use this example often throughout my podcast and when I’m talking to people about understanding the environment you’re in and adjusting yourself to how things need to be.  I’m not saying change who you are, I’m just saying understand the environment and make some adjustments to work within it, if that makes sense.

Wendy Harris: It’s how you get to making conversations count, right?!

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  I don’t understand what the problem is!

Wendy Harris: No, and often, we could do with somebody just pointing it out through somebody else’s eyes.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so, and my boss was very, very good about it.  He was like, “Listen, I can see what you’re getting at here, having seen the emails from before and now.  I understand what your intention is, but this is not the world you’re living in anymore, so we need to adjust this a bit”.  He wasn’t scalding me, he was just helping me learn and guiding me.  He was very, very good, I was very impressed.

Wendy Harris: “Here’s how we can make it better now”.

Simon Kardynal: Exactly, yeah.

Wendy Harris: And I guess that with the leadership that you’ve done yourself, you would absolutely know what that is like, being on the other foot, so to speak.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  And when he and I were having this conversation, I started having these thoughts in the back of my mind about times when I was thinking, “This is a miscommunication I had.  Oh yeah, this makes sense, this makes sense”, and it’s interesting how it all kind of flows together then all of a sudden.

Wendy Harris: So, when it comes to leadership and conversations and things like that, often people talk about the conversations that they have with themselves, and I’ve been noticing a pattern.  That pattern is generally that that conversation with themselves comes through some form of ritual, daily ritual of exercising, whether it be swimming, running, cycling, etc.  Do you find that you have a similar sort of outlet for your own internal conversations, Simon?

Simon Kardynal: I very much do, and it’s a really great point in that quite often, emerging leaders especially, they’re feeling a lot of pressure to perform, to be perfect, and quite often that translates into extended hours and making decisions between taking care of yourself, or taking care of whatever the project or the team members.  And more often than not, taking care of yourself gets pushed to the side; and the longer you push that to the side, the worse things are going to get, because everything is connected.

That’s actually one of the things that I found when I was in the military.  It was time for me to retire when I realised that the love that I had of being in the military and representing this country, with all of its strengths and its faults, and being able to help people, the drive and the desire was simply not there.  It was time to go and do things for me.  So, what that meant was to really focus more on personal passions, like I’m a private pilot so I fly a lot now, and I have a motorcycle so I ride my motorcycle a bit more, nowhere near as much as I would like.

Wendy Harris: There’s an airfield just up the road from me, you know, Simon.

Simon Kardynal: We’re going to have to figure this out!

Wendy Harris: I feel a dastardly plan coming along.

Simon Kardynal: Very nice, we’re going to have to do that.

Wendy Harris: What a wonderful thing to be able to do though?

Simon Kardynal: I love it.  It’s hard to explain the freedom that comes with that.  And when I’m doing that, when I’m flying, my singular focus is on the safety of myself, if I happen to have passengers, of course the aircraft; but it’s something that allows me to really align my thoughts into one thing.  I don’t have anything else going on in the back of my mind.  I’m looking at that particular focus, I need to pay attention to what’s happening in the aircraft and the dials and the air, and you get the idea.

Wendy Harris: Yeah.

Simon Kardynal: That really helps me reset if I’m having a rough day, or something’s in the back of my mind.  Or, even if I’m trying to make a decision on something, quite often the decision will come in the back of my head when I’m doing my thing and then after I’ve landed, I’m like, “Oh, okay”.  I like to use the term, “I’ve chewed on this long enough and here’s how I’m going to present…”, whatever it happens to be.

That helps for definitely my mental state, but from a physical perspective, I am a bit of a runner.  I’ve actually run two half marathons.  I’m still very new to this, I recognise that, but I’m signed up for another half marathon in May, so I get out and I’m on the road and I’m putting the kilometres behind me, and then I’m trying to get to the gym regularly as well in between that.  And that physical release is also just as important, because if I had a rough day, I go to the gym and I push the weights really hard, then I release whatever the bad interview might be, etc, and then I’m able to go and reset again.

That’s my point earlier, is how important it is for leaders, emerging leaders especially, but all leaders, to go and have that release, have something that’s going to help you reset your mind.  It doesn’t have to be a long time, but something that’s just going to help you get going again.

Wendy Harris: I think an important thing here, certainly that I’ve learnt, is that I’ve been sporadic, I’ve been hit and miss, I do a bit here and a bit there.  I’ve made a conscious effort recently to do it, but it’s got to be the thing that does, because that’s what’s going to be holding me together is me, and that’s the only thing that I’m selfish about, and we have to give ourselves that permission.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  To tell yourself, “It’s okay to take an hour to go to the gym or go swimming or run”, etc, it’s okay to take that time, and to remember the value in it.  It’s hard to see that.

Wendy Harris: I think we’ve got to that part in the show that I always start to go — that was a pretty lame drumroll, wasn’t it!  I’m sure Neal can put something snazzy on.  That conversation that counted for you, Simon, what was that all about?

Simon Kardynal: For me, it happens to be that two years ago, I was still very focused on being in the military and letting the system take me as far up in the rank structure as they would let me go, and do all those types of things.  I was still very much a military guy, if you want to word it that way.  And then I started this master’s degree, Master of Arts in Leadership, and it was at a civilian university.  That was really an item in my life that opened up my eyes to a different world that had existed outside of anything I have done before.  I joined the military when I was 19, so I like to say that I had given my entire adult life to the military and serving the country.

But as you can imagine, it’s like any large corporation, we all thought the same way and we did things the same way and I was inside my own little military bubble.  All of a sudden, I was outside of that, and here I was at the residency portion of this master’s degree, and I remember really feeling the power of the imposter syndrome weight on my shoulders.  And the head of the programme stood up there and said, “Every single person here belongs to be here, not because of what your background is, but because of who you are.  You have just as much a right to be here as anyone else.  And if this isn’t a passion of yours, you may want to go do something else”.

That really stuck with me, I never lost that.  I remember thinking, “I need to go do some other things in my life, I need to find the other passions and still be able to help people”.  That’s why the podcast came about, but at the same token, be able to focus on me some more.  And here we are.  That small sentence made a huge difference.

There was another tiny, little one as well in a movie called Knight and Day, with Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz, and I can’t believe I’m going to quote Tom Cruise, but here we go.  In the movie, Cameron Diaz and Tom Cruise are in the aeroplane and Cameron Diaz says something along the lines of, “Someday, I’m going to go and drive along the coast in my dad’s car”, and Tom Cruise is like, “Yeah, that’s a dangerous word.  ‘Someday’ is just another word for never”, and that hit me like a ton of bricks as well.

I remember thinking, “Wow!”, in that moment I had been thinking, “Someday, I’m going to get my pilot’s licence.  Someday, I’m going to run a half marathon.  Someday, I’m going to get my motorcycle out and ride it more”, and it was someday, someday, someday.  Now I’m registered, now I’ve got two half marathons behind me, I ride my motorcycle, I fly a lot more, I refuse to let someday be never.  And here we are.

Wendy Harris: That’s incredible, and I would just say that I recently watched a film called the Last Flag Flying, I don’t know whether you’ve seen it.

Simon Kardynal: I haven’t, but I’m going to check it out.

Wendy Harris: It’s Bryan Cranston out of Breaking Bad, Laurence Fishburne out of Matrix, a few other faces, but they’re ex-vets and the story goes that they have to go and collect one of the ex-vets’ sons that had served.  It’s not necessarily about the journey that they go on to go and collect the boy, who was only a boy, but more so that these three people had not seen each other in decades, and what had happened then, how their lives had moved on so much, yet how quickly they could drop back into that character that they once were. 

So, they’d been denying that part of their life, and I just thought that was really interesting, because it’s only when you get to a certain age, like I feel like I’m getting to a certain age, that you can look back and go, “Do you know what, I’m still like that person that was 18”.  I might not do it very often.

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  So, I actually had got my pilot’s licence, I completed the training way back in 2010 and then life kicked in.  You buy a house, you move, children, all of that type of stuff kicks in, it’s just the way it goes, and it was always, “Someday, I’m going to get back to this, someday I’m going to get there”.

Had I stayed in the military, I was doing quite well, and I would have been promoted by now, but that trade-off meant that when I got promoted to those rank levels of Chief Warrant Officer, I would have been even busier in my job, and that meant I would not have had time to go flying, or go do these other things.  I could have, but the trade-off is now I’m not with my family, or I’m not doing this.  It’s a trade-off, it’s that balance, and I opted to retire from the military so I could go and follow my passions and still pay the bills.

Wendy Harris: Here’s how I would sum that up then, Simon, is that that leadership course, where you were going to be going and helping lots of other people, in actual fact showed you how to be a better leader of yourself, and that’s the message that you can go out with this is saying, “Be a better leader of yourself.  Don’t let someday be no day”.

Simon Kardynal: I completely agree with you.  I quite often say to people that the military taught me how to be a really good leader with my brain; the Master of Arts Leadership degree programme taught me how to be a really good leader with my heart; and Simon taught me, myself, how to find a blend of the two to be the best leader that I can be with the skills that I have, and that’s kind of how I try and put it together.

Wendy Harris: Wow, it’s an incredible conversation.  Thank you so much for coming and sharing it with me and the listeners.  Now, I always say for people to carry this conversation on, we’re obviously going to put all of the details into the show notes and onto the website, and all of that business.  But a quick shoutout now, where’s the best place for anybody to find you if they want to carry on the conversation?

Simon Kardynal: So, I’m all over all of the regular social media things.  So, Simon Kardynal, I’m on LinkedIn and Facebook.  However, the podcast is also out there as well, Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front.  I have a website, trenchleadership.ca.  Of course, it’s on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, YouTube, you get the idea, all of the places as well.  And I would love to hear from anyone and see what people think.

Wendy Harris: It’s been wonderful to speak to you, Simon.  I’ll speak to you soon.

Simon Kardynal: Absolutely.  Thanks again for your time, I appreciate this so much.

Wendy Harris: Well, there is a conversation that I’m hoping will make you think about rapport-building.  One small change could be to listen more closely, it could be to be better prepared with the right framing of question.  Certainly for me, in my telemarketing training, one small change that has a big impact is letting people know that it’s a good idea to leave a message on the machine.  The machine doesn’t listen, but of course the human will listen back to that message later and not see it as a missed call or potential spam.

Well, all that’s left for me to say is, thank you for listening, make sure that you’re following the show.  Please leave us a review, because that tells all the algorithms that you’ve enjoyed it and will help put us in front of new listeners.  Next time, we’re joined by Al Tepper of TepFu.  He says we should be doing less for more, but how on earth do you do that, Al?  Well, he’s going to tell us all about it next time in Making Conversations about Lazy Marketing Count.