Trench leadership styles in the armed forces – and how to use them in business for better results

We're Making Conversations about trenches (trench leadership) Count!

Episode 69 - Simon Kardynal

Are you using trench leadership to effectively manage your team? We’re talking about leadership styles in the armed forces with Simon Kardynal!


Artwork for Simon Kardynal episode of Making Conversations Count - talking leadership styles in the armed forces

Big take-away quote from this conversation about trench leadership and leadership styles in the armed forces:

“Just because you handled something one way with a particular person, one time, doesn’t mean that it’s going to work the next time....”

Simon Kardynal, Making Conversations Count (February 2022)

(Hard of hearing? Transcript here).

Strapped for data? You can hear a lower-bandwidth version of the episode here.) 

What are trench leadership styles (as used) in the armed forces?

In the early days of trench warfare, officers would lead their troops from the front line. This type of leadership is what is commonly referred to as ‘trench warfare’.

It was a way for commanders to maintain close contact with their men, and provide support and encouragement when needed.

Trench warfare evolved into a more strategic style of fighting, with trenches being dug in strategic locations and the use of artillery.

The trenches would be filled with soldiers, who were protected by barbed wire and walls made out of sand bags or wood.

These trenches were often covered with camouflage netting so that they could not be seen from above ground level.


Without wishing to give you too many spoilers, this episode once again has the power of conversations sitting firmly at its core. It’s unsurprising really. Everything we do in life somehow comes back to effective conversations.

Are you using conversations as part of your strategy in business?

Well, don’t worry – there’s great news!

Wendy‘s currently running a 12 week blueprint programme which outlines her ‘four R formula’.

Want to overcome that fear of rejection or guide your teams towards having better conversations?

Well, then you need to click this.

12 week success blueprint artwork

Sign up now to make sure you don’t miss the opportunity to improve every aspect of your lead-generation.

Using decades of knowledge and experience, Wendy can help you get the results you want, quickly.

Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts now by clicking this:

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Trench warfare in history

Trench warfare is a type of warfare that was commonly used in World War I. It is a defensive strategy where troops are stationed in trenches to protect themselves from enemy fire.

The use of trenches continued into World War II, although the style of fighting changed somewhat. The Germans made extensive use of trenches in their defence against the Allied forces.

Why are we telling you this?

A pic depicting the second world war as we talk about leadership styles in the armed forcesBecause this is how things used to be.

In a bygone era.

Before the computer age.

Now, most wars are fought by computer, using advanced level technology including drones and automated missiles.

The internet has changed everything.

And with that, so has leadership.

Trench leadership

This is what leadership expert Simon Kardynal believes. And he’s telling us all about it in the latest edition of Making Conversations Count podcast.

He talks all about trench leadership in his podcast “Trench Leadership: a podcast from the front”

According to the podcast’s description, he uses it to share his personal and professional experience, education and guests to provide advice, inspiration, and practical tools to help emerging leaders find their path right in the ‘trenches’, as leaders.

Simon was an aircraft structures technician in the Canadian Air Force, and you can hear in the episode that it was a joyous time in his life.

In the pre-internet era, people were much more likely to blindly accept a directive from their leader without question.

This is because there was a greater level of trust between leaders and followers.

Leaders were seen as authority figures who had the knowledge and experience to make decisions that would benefit the group as a whole.

Followers were taught to respect their leaders and to trust their judgement.

This led to a top-down style of communication, where directives were issued from the top and followed without question.

However, in today’s world, people are much less likely to blindly accept a directive from their leader without question.

Is this because people are now more skeptical of authority figures, and they want to be able to make their own decisions?

Or is it because people are now more connected, and they can access information from a variety of sources?

Continues below…

Good leadership is Knight and Day from bad leadership

We’ll get more into the reason and thought process behind Simon’s leadership views in a moment, but here’s some inspirational gold to be sieved out of the conversation to get you going.

Simon mentions the need to control the spread and method of communication and to not allow for any grey area.

He cites an anecdote surrounding an email he sent.

Emails are a literal minefield of potential leadership issues.

For a start emails are open to interpretation and knowing what to put in them can be the difference between being a great leader, and being an embarrassment.

This conversation is quite special in another way.

This episode is Knight and Day different from the others

It features 100% more Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz!

We’ll leave you to listen and find out why, but for now, we’re just going to leave this here.

A pic of Nazi meeting as we discuss leadership styles in the armed forces

Watch the episode promo!

Managed to catch the previous episode yet? Click play on the player below to listen!

The need for leadership to become a conversation not a directive

Simon believes that the internet has led to a greater need for conversations.

In the past, the leadership styles in the armed forces were governed by an established principle, which was shrouded in discipline.

Leadership was about appointing those strong individuals who were able to bark orders and expect them to be followed without question.

However, in today’s world, leaders need to be able to have conversations with their followers.

People no longer trust authority figures blindly, and they want to be able to have discussions with their leaders so that they can understand the reasoning behind their decisions.

The motivations.

The values that sit behind every decision they make.

Does effective leadership mean starting with why?

Simon also believes that nowadays it’s more important than ever for leaders to have a ‘why’.

See, even in the military world, the zeitgeist is apparent.

The term having a clear ‘why’ continues to bubble around in business.

It originates from the American author Simon Sinek.

Sinek is also a motivational speaker and entrepreneur.

He’s well-known for his book ‘Start with Why’.

Sinek argues that the people of this world are motivated by two different types of “WHY”.

The first type is a person’s self-interest (I want).

The second type is what he calls “a cause to believe in” (I believe).

He says it’s always better to inspire leadership through appealing to followers’ sense of belief.

His goal with his work is to help leaders understand how they can build trust and connection with their customers or employees by starting with why they do what they do.

Simon has been interviewed on television networks such as Bloomberg TV, CNN, MSNBC, and so he’s highly regarded in the business community, although our previous guest Barnaby Wynter doesn’t buy it all.

Barnaby said, “in fairness, I’m not a big fan of Simon Sinek’s Start With Why. I think, when it was published in 2009, it was a great summary of the previous ten years of what we’d seen in the agency, and how brands were being created. 

I think it’s had a profoundly damaging affect on the mindsets of many business owners, starting with why, because it’s almost like if they get that, then that’s all they have to do, “I’ve discovered my why, I’ve discovered my purpose”.

All of that’s great, but it’s only meaningful to you as a business owner, it’s not really meaningful to the outside world. One of the flaws in that piece of thinking is it doesn’t translate into a messaging and a brand and an experience of systems and processes, how we want to narrate it; or buyers, the people who are going to give you money to sustain your purpose. And it’s been very damaging.

I’ve had a lot of people walk in and say, “Oh, yeah, we’ve defined our why” and I go, “So, why are you here?” and they go, “Because it doesn’t really work!” 

“You know why you’re going to work, and I don’t care! You’ve blasted me with features and your website’s covered in features and this and that and all that sort of thing, and it really is your version of your why and everything, but actually I’ve got my own personal why, and it doesn’t bear any relationship to yours, so therefore good luck and enjoy your life”.

So, there’s a real risk associated around the Start With Why philosophy, and actually if you look at the brands that have emerged in the last ten years or so, none of them have a why. 

Bezos is getting a lot of criticism for setting up one of the most fantastic business models possible in Amazon. 

His why wasn’t what it is now, and certainly I wouldn’t buy into his why. I wouldn’t want to fly into Scotland in a £48 million jet on day one of COP26. I mean, the disconnect between what Bezos is doing and sending people up in rockets for ten minutes, and sending them back down; the disconnect between that and what our real country challenges are right now is so profound that it’s almost scary. And yet, he’s got all the wealth, all the power to do something about it, and it’s completely counterintuitive.”


If you want to check out the full episode, you can do so, here.


(Full transcript here)

Barnaby's sales bucket

The future of leadership

In the past, it was enough for leaders to have a clear vision and mission for their group. However, in today’s world, followers want to know why the leader is doing what they’re doing.

They want to be able to understand the motivation behind the leader’s decisions.

They don’t want to be told what to do – they want to understand why they’re doing it.

To make their own decisions.

Dealing with gossip

Simon also has some tips for handling gossip and infighting.

In any workplace, there will always be a certain amount of gossiping that goes on.

However, if you don’t understand the psychology behind why people gossip, you’ll never be able to handle it effectively.

Gossiping is often a way for people to build relationships and feel connected to others.

However, if you’re not careful, it can also destroy relationships and cause division within a group.

Understanding the different psychological profiles at play in a group of people gossiping is essential for handling them effectively. Some people gossip because they are insecure and need to build up their self-esteem by putting others down. Others may gossip because they are bored or unhappy with their own

Simon explains.

“My kneejerk reaction is to sit everyone down that’s involved in this gossip and say, “Okay, let’s hash this out. We’re hearing these different things, let’s get this out there”, but that aggressive approach might not work. It might not work with the people, it might not work in the situation.

So, my recommendation would be to take a little bit of time, not necessarily take in the information because it is gossip, but try and understand the whole situation.”


In the past, it was easy for leaders to deal with infighting and gossip among their followers.

All they had to do was issue a directive telling them to stop.

However, in today’s world, leaders need to be able to handle these situations in a more delicate manner.

They can’t just tell people to stop – they need to be able to have conversations with them and understand the root of the problem.

Again, they don’t want to be told what to do – they want to understand why they’re doing it.

And this is why it’s important to consider the leadership style you’ve adopted, and whether it needs to be adapted to suit your current environment.

During this episode you’ll learn:

  • How each person you’re demonstrating leadership to might need a different approach.
  • How to stop gossip.
  • The importance of clearly explaining the why as well as the what!
  • Why the Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz movie “Knight and Day” contains an important message.
  • How the internet era has changed how people want to be led and why it’s important to consider that.
  • Why barking orders doesn’t work.
  • How Wendy managed to sneak in a plug for this great movie she watched, featuring Morpheus from The Matrix and Walter White from Breaking Bad.

Do you have any tips for leadership styles, or any thoughts on those leadership styles used in the armed forces?

We’d love to mention them and you on a future episode.

Share them with us, by clicking here.


Simon’s advice for zero-day good leadership

Simon has advice for anyone starting out in business who wants to get it nailed from the start with their leadership.

“So a bit of a two-pronged answer.

One part of it is what we just spoke about.

Explain the why of things to people.

In the podcast that I have, “The Trench Leadership, the podcast from the front”. one of the common themes that constantly keeps coming up is that people need to understand the why of things, because that information is so easy to get.

(Also), it’s very important to make sure that the leader gets all of the sides of the story before they go and make any type of decision.

I understand that sometimes things have to happen quickly, but more often than not, we have time to actually sit down and figure out both or all aspects of something that’s going on.”

So, Wendy’s takeaway from the conversation in this episode about trench leadership and leadership styles in the armed forces?

“Simon has spent a lifelong career in the military and shares his story on moving up the ranks from foot soldier to leader. On his journey to lead he was put through school and the material he was presented with gave him an opportunity to consider his own path more closely.

Simon is a civilian now and a notable podcast host in Canada where he shares conversations on rapport building in leadership.”

Did you enjoy this conversation about trench leadership and Simon’s thoughts around leadership styles in the armed forces during this current internet-fuelled age?
Wil you now consider how you’re managing your teams and demonstrating your leadership?

We love to hear from you.

Please do let us know your take-aways from this episode by leaving a comment at

Want to carry on the conversation with Simon?


Trench Leadership Web-site:


Instagram: trench_leadership


Twitter: @TrenchLeadersh1

Simon’s letter to listeners

Dear listeners,


We all have to start our leadership journey somewhere, at some time, and the odds are that at the beginning of your leadership journey, you made A LOT of mistakes. 

And that’s ok, mistakes will happen, the real test of your leadership is how you choose to use these mistakes.

Have you chosen to learn from them, putting another tool in your leadership tool box?


The thing is, we can help each other, we can share our knowledge and experiences to help emerging leaders succeed, to help them avoid our mistakes by giving them our leadership tools.

We can keep the conversation about trench leadership going, reminding emergent leaders of their superpowers, reminding them that they deserve the seat at the table. 

We can offer sage advice and blunt truths about performance. 

Keeping the conversation going means that we can help leaders who are in trenches that they earned the right to be a leader and that leadership is a gift, one that can be cherished and honed with advice, inspiration, and practical tools.

My friends, let’s keep the conversation about leadership styles going by talking about our epic failures, our wins, and how we grow from these experiences along the way.











“Making Conversations Count” is a podcast from WAG Associates founder and telemarketing trainer Wendy Harris.


Missed our previous episodes?

You can catch up with any of the other guests we’ve been making conversations count with, here.

If you’re on your mobile device, you can hear them in your favourite platform (Apple or Spotify etc) here.

Once you’ve listened, remember to leave us a review



Follow the show on Apple Podcasts here!

Follow the show on Spotify, here!

You are following the show on socials, right?

Only there will you see sneaky peaky teasers of the upcoming episodes, as well as updates and news on the show!

Here are the links just in case you need them:






Listen to other episodes on your favourite platform…

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Fancy repeating the experience of making conversations count? Here's another chance to hear a popular previous conversation - on a similar theme to the one you just heard.

Full Episode Transcript - Conversation about trench leadership and leadership styles in the armed forces - "Making Conversations Count"


Making Conversations about Being in the Trenches Count




Simon Kardynal



00:00:00: Introduction
00:03:40: Managing the family dynamic
Conversations as a leader
Having empathy with people’s situations
00:09:15: Explaining the “why not” as well as the “why”
00:12:51: Key leadership tip
Get all sides of the story
How to deal with gossip
Avoiding misinterpretation of messages
Internal conversations and looking after yourself
Simon’s pivotal conversation
Final thoughts


Interview Transcription

Wendy Harris: Thank you for listening to Making Conversations Count.  I’m your host, Wendy Harris, and your telemarketing trainer.  In this episode, we’re going to be Making Conversations about Being in the Trenches Count.

What’s new, Wendy Woo?  Well recently, in our conversation with Lorraine Ball, we asked you to be sending us some pictures of your pets at work, and what your thoughts are on having your pets at work.  Well, we’ve been absolutely inundated, there are just way too many people for me to mention here: Caroline, Nicole, Ian, Colin; those are just some names that have come off the top of my head.  So, we’re going to be putting a little collage together, and we’re going to splashing those pets at work all over our social channels.  Keep your eyes peeled.  Make sure you follow the show on your favourite channel, and then you can see yourself and tag yourself in.

I’m joined by guest, Simon Kardynal.  He’s spent a lifelong career in the military, and shares his story on moving up the ranks from foot soldier to leader.  On this journey to lead, he was put through school and the material he was presented with gave him an opportunity to consider his own path more closely.  Simon is a civilian now, and a notable podcast host in Canada, where he shares conversations on rapport-building in leadership.  Let’s introduce Simon.

So, with me in the studio, well not quite literally with me, because we’re still not able to do much of that at the moment, but joining me all the way from Canada is fellow podcaster, Simon Kardynal.  What struck me about Simon and his profile was how he had taken all that he had learnt from being in service for over 26 years.  So, Simon, please introduce yourself to the listeners.

Simon Kardynal: Hi, Wendy, thank you so much for having me on the show, I really appreciate that.  And one of the things you mentioned was that I was in the military for 26 years, just a shade over.  I actually started in the infantry, because I was a 19-year-old kid and it seemed like a fun adventure to get into.  Then, after five or six years, as one could imagine, that’s a very difficult lifestyle, so it was time to move into something else.

In the Canadian military, we have a programme whereby someone can actually change their trade and stay in the military, and then go onto something else.  So, I joined the Canadian Air Force, the Royal Canadian Air Force, and I became what was called an Aircraft Structures Technician.  It’s very, very loosely similar to autobody, but very, very loosely.

So, after a few years of doing that, this is actually where I started my formal leadership training, because I was getting promoted, etc, and in the air maintenance trades, you become something that’s called an Aircraft Maintenance Superintendent.  So, everyone who achieves the rank of Warrant Officer becomes this particular trade, because the theory is that it’s personnel management and I don’t need to be an expert in what the trade is, I need to be able to take care of the people inside the trade, at that institutional, strategic institutional level.  So, there’s that.

But as you had also mentioned, I’m a podcaster as well.  I actually retired from the military back in January of this year, 2021, and we’re going to talk some more about why I got to that point a little bit later on.  So, I’m a podcaster, I work for a company named Calian right now as a Contracts Manager.  The reason I do that is because I have a 19-year-old daughter and she wants to be a veterinarian and she has laser focus on that and as one could imagine, that is not cheap.  So, I have to continue to pay the bills.

Wendy Harris: Well, the consistency of an income is something that I’m pretty sure everybody can relate to.

Simon Kardynal: Oh, yes, bills have to be paid.

Wendy Harris: And 19-year-old girls don’t come cheap; I know, I’ve got two girls.  One’s in her 20s with her own home now, and the other one is the start of the teens.  So, yeah, I know what it’s like, they want for everything, don’t they, as well and they don’t realise that they’re wanting for everything; and as a parent, we want to give them everything too.

Simon Kardynal: Yeah, exactly.  And we have just the one, so it makes it easier for us to be able to do that, but there’s also the danger in that too, because it’s easier to do that.  So, where do you draw the line with stuff?

Wendy Harris: Well, you draw on all of that leadership that you got taught.  And I think there’s something in it that having a family is a little bit like having a little mini business anyway, because you’ve got people in the house that maybe you wouldn’t pick, you’re kind of thrown together just because you’re mum and dad and they’re the child; you each have to take on a role, there’s good cop bad cop, or the pushover.  So, I think you do have to approach things to keep that equilibrium and fairness within a family unit.

Simon Kardynal: It’s a challenge for sure, so it’s interesting.  And like you said, in that leadership dynamic, as leaders, you need to be able to adjust in the flow and read the situation.  And just because you handle something one way with a particular person at one time in the past in a certain way, doesn’t mean that’s going to work the next time.  You have to really be able to actively listen and see and hear and understand what’s happening around in the environment.  It’s tough, it’s a challenge.

Wendy Harris: The thing is as well, if you treat them exactly the same, then you’re assuming that they haven’t learnt anything and grown from the previous situation.  That could also backfire on you, can’t it?  Tell me more about the sorts of conversations that you’ve had to have as a leader to get to the desired outcome.

Simon Kardynal: That’s an excellent question, and I draw a lot of my experiences from when I was an instructor teaching basic training; because in that moment, I was the first of what’s called a Senior Non-commission Member, and it’s when you really start being in charge of groups of people, having that direct contract, in larger than small to teams of two to four. 

In this particular case, I was a section commander, and I would be in charge of anywhere between 20 to 15 people, and then you get promoted to other roles, not in rank, and you’re in charge of 60 people, so that matters.  And the interesting thing about places like basic training is, the idea of it is not to make soldiers, the idea is actually just to teach someone what it means to be in the Canadian Military or the British Military or the United States Military.  The basic crux, the goal of basic training is the same, to give someone an understanding of what it means to do that.

The challenge with that though is, when you’re having these types of conversations with these folks is to remember that even though they’re wearing the uniform now, they’re still in essence a civilian, because they don’t really understand what they’re getting into, even if they were in cadets, or if they had family in the military before, it’s different to have their own personal experience. 

So, when they’re having these types of challenges or you have to have some type of disciplinary or administrative conversation with them, as I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing to think of is to understand the situation that you’re in, have a quick look around, make sure you’re not just making a decision based off of what you’re seeing in the moment, what you’re hearing in the moment, think about the whole thing.

The other thing that I try to do, and it’s difficult sometimes, is to have empathy for someone else’s experiences.  Just because I don’t agree with them or I don’t like what’s happening, doesn’t mean I can’t respect that person’s going through something.  And I think it’s important for all leaders to keep that empathetic thought in the back of their mind when they’re speaking and making any type of decision.

Wendy Harris: I think you’re right, Simon, that often leaders, certainly the imagery of being in the military, is that you’ve got one boss, his word goes, what he says, you do; and to an extent, it is about following orders, but it’s also got to be about them being better people, because if they’re a better person they can be a better soldier.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  And when I was going through the military basic training was way back in 1994, and it was still very much that transactional style leadership, “Turn Left”.  It wasn’t a conversation, it wasn’t a discussion about it, I just turned left.  That’s just a very basic example I’m using, but more often than not, it wasn’t a discussion about why something was happening, but keeping in mind in 1994, the internet was barely alive, it was the military and it was very stereotypically macho and you just did what you were told and that was the end of it.

However, flash forward to 2021, getting information is so easy and it’s so quick and it’s literally a Google click away.  So, people can get the why of something and it’s been a challenge for the militaries, and I think large organisations as well, to understand the value, not just the importance, but the value of explaining the why to someone.  Now, if we don’t provide that, they’re just going to go get it, and it will be the first internet search that comes up.

I will say, sometimes it’s not appropriate to give the why or there’s no time to deliver that, but someone could even say, “I can’t explain why right now, you just need to do what I’m telling you to do and then we’ll get there, but right now this has to get done”.  That’s okay too, but again it’s understanding the environment that you’re in.

Wendy Harris: And that comes down to a lot of the trust between people, doesn’t it, to trust that you can follow that instruction and that you’ll be okay in whatever scenario, whether that be in a military, or even in a corporate environment.  My dad always used to say to me, “I’ll tell you not to do something, but I’ll always tell you why.  And if you still go ahead and do it, at least you’ll understand what the ramifications are going to be”. 

I think that’s really important, because we were talking earlier about being parents, you can tell your children, “Don’t take drugs, don’t drink alcohol, don’t have underage sex”, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to listen to us.  We can explain the why not to do all of those things, but once they’ve tried it and the experience isn’t good, then they can put their trust back into you, because you’re not just telling them because you’re their mum or dad, or you’re their boss.

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  And it’s tough when we’re proven right to not be, “Well, I told you that was a bad idea”; it’s challenging.  But one of the things I’ve found as a parent is that, a few years ago, I think of an example of that.  So, I had been talking to my daughter many, many times about, “When you get your own job…”, because she was always coming to us, like children do, and say, “I want to buy this, I want to buy that”, or whatever, and I said, “Well, listen, you got a job, you’re on your own.  You’re buying your own phone.  I’ll help you as much as I can for sure, but we’re going to start building you with some responsibilities”.

So, she went and got a job and she was working the job, didn’t really like the job, because it was a picker at Walmart, I think.  And then all of a sudden, she had to go pay her cell phone bill that month, and it was the first time she’d had to pay the bill.  She realised that that was half of her first paycheque and she came to me and she’s like, “Dad, remember when you were telling me about how, when you start getting paid and you have bills and you’re going to have to start making choices about what you want to do versus what you need to do with your money?  I thought I understood, but I get it”.

Right away, I had a big grin on my face, and she could hear me churning in the back of my head that I was sitting there like, “I really want to say, ‘I told you so'”, but I didn’t, I held that back, I said, “Yeah, these are the types of things in life you’re going to figure out”, etc, the usual type of conversation.  But the experience of getting to those points is invaluable; and as leaders, it’s striking a balance of letting someone stumble and knowing when that’s okay to do that and when sometimes we just can’t let the stumble happen.  It’s a tough balance.  I think most things in leadership are a balance of some type.

Wendy Harris: I get it and I quite often say that balance, it’s like those scales, isn’t it, that they swing one way or another, but ultimately there is still always that rod down the middle that stays static, central, it’s very grounded, and that’s what you have to put your trust in to bring that balance back into kilter.

Simon Kardynal: Yeah, absolutely, help them find the middle ground and then guide them along that path, understanding that the pendulum is going to swing to the left and right sometimes, and that’s okay; roll with the punches, understand the environment and things will be okay.

Wendy Harris: So, anybody that’s starting out in business right now then, Simon, those young entrepreneurs, or even those people that are in business and have been around for a long time, what would your number one tip be to help them along their leadership journey?

Simon Kardynal: So, I think I’ve got a bit of a two-pronged answer.  One part of it, we just spoke about, is explain the why of things to people.  In the podcast that I have, the Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front, one of the common themes that constantly keeps coming up is that people need to understand that why of things, because that information is so easy to get. 

If we don’t provide that, the first thing that’s going to happen, they’ll go to the internet, and the first internet hit that comes up, that’s going to be the truth.  Whether or not it is the truth doesn’t matter.  So, if you have the time, explain the why of things; because, as you have mentioned, that builds the trust.  And if you can’t, someone, the team generally, will be more likely to be open to the understanding that we might not be able to provide that right away. 

With the idea of getting the why of things, when you’re a leader, and this is the other half of this answer, it’s very, very important to make sure that the leader gets all the sides of the story before they go and make any type of decision.  I understand that sometimes, things have to happen quickly; but more often than not, we have time to actually sit down and figure out both or all aspects of something that’s going on. 

This is especially important if you’re having to have a difficult conversation, you’re hearing gossip in the workplace, whatever.  If something is difficult, or there are very diametrically opposed opinions on something, there’s a middle ground and more often than not, it’s a lack of communication.  But getting all that information, taking that time, being patient will definitely help people moving forward.  And again, that builds trust.  It shows that the leader is thoughtful in taking everything into consideration and ensuring everyone is being heard.

Wendy Harris: I think you’re right there, that there are always two sides to the story.  I think you’ve kind of touched on that there’s sometimes three and four, because if there is gossip, that can really add fuel to the fire.  If there is gossip, how do you handle putting the flame out on that?  I’ve found that’s been a really toxic environment for many people that would want the answer to that.  Should they themselves be putting that fire out, or should it come from the top?

Simon Kardynal: Again, I think a part of that has to come with understanding the environment and how it’s evolving.  Myself, my kneejerk reaction is to sit everyone down that’s involved in this gossip and say, “Okay, let’s hash this out.  We’re hearing these different things, let’s get this out there”, but that aggressive approach might not work.  It might not work with the people, it might not work in the situation.

So, my recommendation would be to take a little bit of time, not necessarily take in the information because it is gossip, but try and understand the whole situation.  And then, if it’s appropriate, my number one recommendation then would be to sit down with everyone and say, “Okay, this is what I’m hearing, what’s going on?” especially if it’s gossip that’s toxic, or it’s damaging to someone.  It’s a good idea to get that out, maybe talk to each person individually to get the whole picture, and then decide if it’s a good idea to bring people together, who knows?

The interesting thing about gossip, my experiences have been that quite often than not, there’s a lot of information that’s not being said, and that’s what’s generating whatever that particular piece of information might be.

Wendy Harris: Right, that subtext, isn’t it?  I sent an email today that was like, “Look, we’re about to have the holidays, I’m pretty sure that nothing’s going to get done this side of it, so let’s pick it up afterwards”, and I immediately got a call going, “I know you were chasing me”, and I was like, “No, I was actually saying I haven’t go the time to do this myself now, so don’t worry about it”.  It’s worth noting that there are two ways to interpret that subtext.

Simon Kardynal: Oh, very much so, especially with emails and text messages.  The ability for people to read into what they want to hear really matters, because you and I could read a sentence in the exact same email and get two entirely different interpretations out of that.  It’s how we choose to put the inflexion on certain words when we’re reading them inside our minds, and that completely changes how things are heard, for all intents and purposes; it’s challenging.

Wendy Harris: So true, Simon, and really why I love picking up the phone.

Simon Kardynal: You and I both.

Wendy Harris: Also, if it’s misunderstood in written communication, then to write back means that you’ve still not got an understanding and the response still might be misunderstood.  So, just nip it in the bud, get straight to the point.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  In the military, everyone has email, and when I was in the military, all of the emails were very similar.  I was almost famous for how sterile my emails were, “Good day, I require this [etc] Master Warrant Officer, Simon Kardynal”, and away it would go.  Didn’t give it a second thought about it, because that’s the environment I lived in.  And then, when I joined this new job, I was doing my stuff and I started sending out my emails, and again the same thing, “Good day, I require this [etc] Simon Kardynal”, and away it would go.

But I knew in my mind that I needed to soften these emails for these civilians I was working with, because I still had that mindset at the time.  So, what I was doing, at the end of it, I was putting, “Thank you very much, have a good day, Simon”! 

Wendy Harris: That was your attempt?

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  So, on one of the days very early on, I got a phone call from my boss saying, “Okay, Simon, we need to talk about this.  Your emails are a little more tense, you kind of need to soften that”, and I was genuinely surprised, I was like, “What are you talking about?  I told everyone to have a good day”.

Wendy Harris: “I have”!

Simon Kardynal: “What is the problem here?”  So now, it’s like, “Hello so-and-so, how are you today?  I hope your day has been…” and in the beginning, I still thought, “This is a waste of my time”.  But now, months later, I understand the value in building that type of a rapport.  And I use this example often throughout my podcast and when I’m talking to people about understanding the environment you’re in and adjusting yourself to how things need to be.  I’m not saying change who you are, I’m just saying understand the environment and make some adjustments to work within it, if that makes sense.

Wendy Harris: It’s how you get to making conversations count, right?!

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  I don’t understand what the problem is!

Wendy Harris: No, and often, we could do with somebody just pointing it out through somebody else’s eyes.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so, and my boss was very, very good about it.  He was like, “Listen, I can see what you’re getting at here, having seen the emails from before and now.  I understand what your intention is, but this is not the world you’re living in anymore, so we need to adjust this a bit”.  He wasn’t scalding me, he was just helping me learn and guiding me.  He was very, very good, I was very impressed.

Wendy Harris: “Here’s how we can make it better now”.

Simon Kardynal: Exactly, yeah.

Wendy Harris: And I guess that with the leadership that you’ve done yourself, you would absolutely know what that is like, being on the other foot, so to speak.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  And when he and I were having this conversation, I started having these thoughts in the back of my mind about times when I was thinking, “This is a miscommunication I had.  Oh yeah, this makes sense, this makes sense”, and it’s interesting how it all kind of flows together then all of a sudden.

Wendy Harris: So, when it comes to leadership and conversations and things like that, often people talk about the conversations that they have with themselves, and I’ve been noticing a pattern.  That pattern is generally that that conversation with themselves comes through some form of ritual, daily ritual of exercising, whether it be swimming, running, cycling, etc.  Do you find that you have a similar sort of outlet for your own internal conversations, Simon?

Simon Kardynal: I very much do, and it’s a really great point in that quite often, emerging leaders especially, they’re feeling a lot of pressure to perform, to be perfect, and quite often that translates into extended hours and making decisions between taking care of yourself, or taking care of whatever the project or the team members.  And more often than not, taking care of yourself gets pushed to the side; and the longer you push that to the side, the worse things are going to get, because everything is connected.

That’s actually one of the things that I found when I was in the military.  It was time for me to retire when I realised that the love that I had of being in the military and representing this country, with all of its strengths and its faults, and being able to help people, the drive and the desire was simply not there.  It was time to go and do things for me.  So, what that meant was to really focus more on personal passions, like I’m a private pilot so I fly a lot now, and I have a motorcycle so I ride my motorcycle a bit more, nowhere near as much as I would like.

Wendy Harris: There’s an airfield just up the road from me, you know, Simon.

Simon Kardynal: We’re going to have to figure this out!

Wendy Harris: I feel a dastardly plan coming along.

Simon Kardynal: Very nice, we’re going to have to do that.

Wendy Harris: What a wonderful thing to be able to do though?

Simon Kardynal: I love it.  It’s hard to explain the freedom that comes with that.  And when I’m doing that, when I’m flying, my singular focus is on the safety of myself, if I happen to have passengers, of course the aircraft; but it’s something that allows me to really align my thoughts into one thing.  I don’t have anything else going on in the back of my mind.  I’m looking at that particular focus, I need to pay attention to what’s happening in the aircraft and the dials and the air, and you get the idea.

Wendy Harris: Yeah.

Simon Kardynal: That really helps me reset if I’m having a rough day, or something’s in the back of my mind.  Or, even if I’m trying to make a decision on something, quite often the decision will come in the back of my head when I’m doing my thing and then after I’ve landed, I’m like, “Oh, okay”.  I like to use the term, “I’ve chewed on this long enough and here’s how I’m going to present…”, whatever it happens to be.

That helps for definitely my mental state, but from a physical perspective, I am a bit of a runner.  I’ve actually run two half marathons.  I’m still very new to this, I recognise that, but I’m signed up for another half marathon in May, so I get out and I’m on the road and I’m putting the kilometres behind me, and then I’m trying to get to the gym regularly as well in between that.  And that physical release is also just as important, because if I had a rough day, I go to the gym and I push the weights really hard, then I release whatever the bad interview might be, etc, and then I’m able to go and reset again.

That’s my point earlier, is how important it is for leaders, emerging leaders especially, but all leaders, to go and have that release, have something that’s going to help you reset your mind.  It doesn’t have to be a long time, but something that’s just going to help you get going again.

Wendy Harris: I think an important thing here, certainly that I’ve learnt, is that I’ve been sporadic, I’ve been hit and miss, I do a bit here and a bit there.  I’ve made a conscious effort recently to do it, but it’s got to be the thing that does, because that’s what’s going to be holding me together is me, and that’s the only thing that I’m selfish about, and we have to give ourselves that permission.

Simon Kardynal: Very much so.  To tell yourself, “It’s okay to take an hour to go to the gym or go swimming or run”, etc, it’s okay to take that time, and to remember the value in it.  It’s hard to see that.

Wendy Harris: I think we’ve got to that part in the show that I always start to go — that was a pretty lame drumroll, wasn’t it!  I’m sure Neal can put something snazzy on.  That conversation that counted for you, Simon, what was that all about?

Simon Kardynal: For me, it happens to be that two years ago, I was still very focused on being in the military and letting the system take me as far up in the rank structure as they would let me go, and do all those types of things.  I was still very much a military guy, if you want to word it that way.  And then I started this master’s degree, Master of Arts in Leadership, and it was at a civilian university.  That was really an item in my life that opened up my eyes to a different world that had existed outside of anything I have done before.  I joined the military when I was 19, so I like to say that I had given my entire adult life to the military and serving the country.

But as you can imagine, it’s like any large corporation, we all thought the same way and we did things the same way and I was inside my own little military bubble.  All of a sudden, I was outside of that, and here I was at the residency portion of this master’s degree, and I remember really feeling the power of the imposter syndrome weight on my shoulders.  And the head of the programme stood up there and said, “Every single person here belongs to be here, not because of what your background is, but because of who you are.  You have just as much a right to be here as anyone else.  And if this isn’t a passion of yours, you may want to go do something else”.

That really stuck with me, I never lost that.  I remember thinking, “I need to go do some other things in my life, I need to find the other passions and still be able to help people”.  That’s why the podcast came about, but at the same token, be able to focus on me some more.  And here we are.  That small sentence made a huge difference.

There was another tiny, little one as well in a movie called Knight and Day, with Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz, and I can’t believe I’m going to quote Tom Cruise, but here we go.  In the movie, Cameron Diaz and Tom Cruise are in the aeroplane and Cameron Diaz says something along the lines of, “Someday, I’m going to go and drive along the coast in my dad’s car”, and Tom Cruise is like, “Yeah, that’s a dangerous word.  ‘Someday’ is just another word for never”, and that hit me like a ton of bricks as well.

I remember thinking, “Wow!”, in that moment I had been thinking, “Someday, I’m going to get my pilot’s licence.  Someday, I’m going to run a half marathon.  Someday, I’m going to get my motorcycle out and ride it more”, and it was someday, someday, someday.  Now I’m registered, now I’ve got two half marathons behind me, I ride my motorcycle, I fly a lot more, I refuse to let someday be never.  And here we are.

Wendy Harris: That’s incredible, and I would just say that I recently watched a film called the Last Flag Flying, I don’t know whether you’ve seen it.

Simon Kardynal: I haven’t, but I’m going to check it out.

Wendy Harris: It’s Bryan Cranston out of Breaking Bad, Laurence Fishburne out of Matrix, a few other faces, but they’re ex-vets and the story goes that they have to go and collect one of the ex-vets’ sons that had served.  It’s not necessarily about the journey that they go on to go and collect the boy, who was only a boy, but more so that these three people had not seen each other in decades, and what had happened then, how their lives had moved on so much, yet how quickly they could drop back into that character that they once were. 

So, they’d been denying that part of their life, and I just thought that was really interesting, because it’s only when you get to a certain age, like I feel like I’m getting to a certain age, that you can look back and go, “Do you know what, I’m still like that person that was 18”.  I might not do it very often.

Simon Kardynal: Exactly.  So, I actually had got my pilot’s licence, I completed the training way back in 2010 and then life kicked in.  You buy a house, you move, children, all of that type of stuff kicks in, it’s just the way it goes, and it was always, “Someday, I’m going to get back to this, someday I’m going to get there”.

Had I stayed in the military, I was doing quite well, and I would have been promoted by now, but that trade-off meant that when I got promoted to those rank levels of Chief Warrant Officer, I would have been even busier in my job, and that meant I would not have had time to go flying, or go do these other things.  I could have, but the trade-off is now I’m not with my family, or I’m not doing this.  It’s a trade-off, it’s that balance, and I opted to retire from the military so I could go and follow my passions and still pay the bills.

Wendy Harris: Here’s how I would sum that up then, Simon, is that that leadership course, where you were going to be going and helping lots of other people, in actual fact showed you how to be a better leader of yourself, and that’s the message that you can go out with this is saying, “Be a better leader of yourself.  Don’t let someday be no day”.

Simon Kardynal: I completely agree with you.  I quite often say to people that the military taught me how to be a really good leader with my brain; the Master of Arts Leadership degree programme taught me how to be a really good leader with my heart; and Simon taught me, myself, how to find a blend of the two to be the best leader that I can be with the skills that I have, and that’s kind of how I try and put it together.

Wendy Harris: Wow, it’s an incredible conversation.  Thank you so much for coming and sharing it with me and the listeners.  Now, I always say for people to carry this conversation on, we’re obviously going to put all of the details into the show notes and onto the website, and all of that business.  But a quick shoutout now, where’s the best place for anybody to find you if they want to carry on the conversation?

Simon Kardynal: So, I’m all over all of the regular social media things.  So, Simon Kardynal, I’m on LinkedIn and Facebook.  However, the podcast is also out there as well, Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front.  I have a website,  Of course, it’s on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, YouTube, you get the idea, all of the places as well.  And I would love to hear from anyone and see what people think.

Wendy Harris: It’s been wonderful to speak to you, Simon.  I’ll speak to you soon.

Simon Kardynal: Absolutely.  Thanks again for your time, I appreciate this so much.

Wendy Harris: Well, there is a conversation that I’m hoping will make you think about rapport-building.  One small change could be to listen more closely, it could be to be better prepared with the right framing of question.  Certainly for me, in my telemarketing training, one small change that has a big impact is letting people know that it’s a good idea to leave a message on the machine.  The machine doesn’t listen, but of course the human will listen back to that message later and not see it as a missed call or potential spam.

Well, all that’s left for me to say is, thank you for listening, make sure that you’re following the show.  Please leave us a review, because that tells all the algorithms that you’ve enjoyed it and will help put us in front of new listeners.  Next time, we’re joined by Al Tepper of TepFu.  He says we should be doing less for more, but how on earth do you do that, Al?  Well, he’s going to tell us all about it next time in Making Conversations about Lazy Marketing Count.



We don’t want the conversation to stop there!

All of our listeners are important to us, so we would love it if you can connect with Wendy on LinkedIn and send her a message with your favourite episode!


paula senior YMCA

Episode 1 – Paula Senior

In our first episode, we speak to Paula Senior from the YMCA. Paula is a fund-raising officer and is currently preparing for the annual Sleepout to raise much needed funds for the night shelter, how covid has stretched them to the limits and how they have risen above the challenges faced by the homeless.

Nat schooler

Episode 2 – Nat Schooler

Can one conversation really influence where you are driven? Nat Schooler

Influence marketeer Nat Schooler joins Wendy as they chat about how important it is to produce strategic content online. Nat spends his time podcasting, writing, and driving across foreign continents for fun. However, their conversation quickly turns to the importance of building relationships with the people you want to work with. Nat places trust as the highest asset everyone should nurture.

Azam Mamujee M Cubed Tax specialist

Episode 3 – Azam Mamujee

In this episode, Wendy is joined by Managing Partner, Azam Mamujee a tax specialist with a voice of velvet.

Azam agrees that conversations count however he explains how numbers can tell a much more powerful story. He has a catchphrase “Give Azam the facts, I’ll save you the Tax”.

Jenny Procter Marketing for introverts bondfield

Episode 4 – Jenny Procter

Jenny Procter – Bondfield Marketing

Making Conversations about Marketing for Introverts Count

Let us introduce you to Jenny Procter, a marketing consultant and self-proclaimed introvert.

Jenny writes PR and communications for B2B clients and has her own podcast show, and she discusses issues around running her own business as an entrepreneur.

Andrew Deighton team coaching

Episode 5 – Andrew Deighton

Andrew Deighton – Team Coaching. Making Conversations about Teams Count. We are joined by Andrew Deighton today, who helps build and develop high-performing teams through strategy and processes in today’s remote working world.

Wendy has worked with Andrew in a second business through mentoring and knows firsthand how his advice relates to many aspects of running a business.

Nicky Pattinson sales expert public speaker

Episode 6 – Nicky Pattinson

Nicky Pattinson – Leading Sales Authority & Public Speaker. Making Conversations about Personality Count. Nicky Pattinson speaks the Truth in all she does! A northern lass who traded on the markets at the beginning of her career, similarly to your host. Now, Nicky has a best-selling book “Email: Don’t Get Deleted” and her own YouTube channel NICKYPTV.

Buckso Dhillon Wooley

Episode 7 – Buckso Dhillon-Wooley

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley – Actress, Speaker & Business Coach. Making Conversations about Self-Belief Count. A true diamond, Buckso is very much aligned with herself and the many facets of her own personality.
As an actor, speaker and coach her mission in life is to help people connect with their higher self.
Being aligned with yourself on a spiritual, physical and emotional level allows you to shine brighter in everything you touch.
Buckso Dillon-Whooley is a well known Actress, who has starred in Disney’s recent remake of Aladdin and is a long-standing actor on Coronation Street with appearances on many UK TV shows.

James Daniel Copywriter

Episode 8 – James Daniel

James Daniel – Copywriter
Making Conversations about Copywriting Count
Joining us in this episode is copywriter James Daniel.
He describes himself as ‘That old guy who writes copy – you know, the beardy one with glasses.’
We should point out there could be other old guys with beards and glasses out there!
It’s easy to like James’ style of writing because he’s a conversationalist who realizes that people don’t speak geek or tech.

Henny Maltby Digital marketing agency

Episode 9 – Henny Maltby

Henny Maltby – Digital Marketing Agency, Pink Elephant Media. Making Conversations about Digital Marketing Count. When the Pandemic hit in early 2020, Henny Maltby turned to her husband as they both realised their business was going to change forever. Offering online marketing to large corporate businesses who cut budgets left a hole to fill. By opening the conversation up with local businesses, it was obvious what the next chapter would be for them at Pink Elephant Media…

Kim Walsh Phillips

Episode 10 – Kim Walsh Phillips

Kim Walsh Phillips owns Powerful Professionals, a business that helps empower entrepreneurs to turn clicks into cash and identifying the superpowers in others so they can fly high. Kim is an expert in social selling strategy.

Amelia Thorpe Wellbeing coach

Episode 11 – Amelia Thorpe

Amelia Thorpe – Mental Health Wellbeing Coach. Making Conversations about Mental Wealth Count. Meet Amelia Thorpe, founder of Wellbeing 360, who talks to Wendy about how important it is to give equal priority to our mental and physical health. Listening to Amelia’s story will bring a beacon of hope that we can all take charge of our own conversations which will give us back the control that slips sometimes when times are tough. Amelia is a wellbeing counsellor.

John Attridge capacity business

Episode 12 – John Attridge

John Attridge – Guiding Businesses to Reach their Full Potential by Tapping into Spare Capacity

Making Conversations about Capacity Count. John Attridge, owner of BBX turns spare capacity into value for many businesses. When you listen to John you just know there is a bigger story to this guy as his accent gives it away!
John has successfully built a business network and community to help people fill spare capacity and exchange services. It is a brilliant concept and if you’ve not come across it before yet in touch with me and I’ll tell you more. Using the BBX community helped my own business through the lockdown and has provided such a lot of support and new relationships.

Clara Wilcox return to work coaching for parents

Episode 13 – Clara Wilcox

Clara Wilcox runs The Balance Collective, Specialising in Return to Work Coaching for Parents. Making Conversations about Returning to Work Count! This is a conversation that every Mum will resonate with, juggling home and work is not simply a balancing act but a superpower!

Clara recognized through her own personal journey that the right support for Mum’s returning to work was only available from the employer’s point of view. This causes a biased approach and is not always helpful in an emotive decision-making process.

dr ivan misner bni networking

Episode 14 – Dr Ivan Misner

In this episode, Ivan and Wendy explore how conversation is the foundation of all growth and learning. How times have changed, looking back and also predicting our future generations experiences, yet communication will still be the underpin even it how that looks has changed.

Janine Coombes marketing coach

Episode 15 – Janine Coombes

Google has recognised this lady as the #1 marketing coach and her video series mixes humour with key messages, it is the lovely Janine Coombes. Janine is a marketing coach for personal brands.
In this episode, Janine and Wendy share how using the right language influences the conversations we have and how it affects our results.

Lizzie Butler presentations coach

Episode 16 – Lizzie Butler

Making conversations about presentations count! Delighted to introduce Lizzie Butler, owner of LB Communications, who met Wendy at a local online networking event and immediately hit it off. Lizzie helps you to grow your business through personal development training and how to achieve brilliant communication.

Jem hills inspirational speaker

Episode 17 – Jem Hills

Making conversations about Bullying count. Jem Hills is an inspirational speaker, trainer & performance coach.
Talking to Wendy in this episode is ex-marine Jem Hills who you might find it hard to believe was affected by bullying and a lack of confidence. As a release Jem discovered Northern dancing and practiced as a bedroom activity that later led to an accidental release of freestyle dancing at a competition. The dancing-built resilience and the foundations for the training to complete the Mud Run and onto his Elite Special Forces career.

Peter howard graphic design

Episode 18 – Peter Howard

Peter Howard runs a design studio that is ranked in the top 100 in the country and was responsible for the WAG brand. Having known Peter and his team for many years, Wendy has heard lots of his stories but knew there would be one she had not heard before.

Taz Thornton & Asha Clearwater business coaches

Episode 19 – Taz Thornton & Asha Clearwater

Making conversations about partnerships count. In a Making Conversations Count first, we are joined by two dynamic guests in this episode. Both Taz & Asha provide business coach services in different areas. Joining Wendy chatting about all the elements that make up a great debate. You are not going to want to miss the observations with Taz Thornton and Asha Clearwater around questioning, opinions, debate and discernment that makes for wonderful colourful conversations.

Vicki Carroll O'Neill

Episode 20 – Vicki Carroll (formerly O’Neill)

Vicki works with entrepreneurs, small business owners and executive leaders who are stuck in their business and need someone as a partner to coach them to their next level of success. Vicki offers growth marketing consultant advice, strategy plans & also organises in-house marketing teams.

heidi medina business coach

Episode 21 – Heidi Medina

This episode contains one of our most important conversations, so we’re definitely going to make it count!
Wendy Harris brings Heidi Medina into the conversation today, who opens up the conversation about abuse she has encountered.
She’s a Linkedin expert and business coach who is the exact opposite of the classic ‘my way or the highway’.
Whether you meet Heidi online or in person she is the same.

Niraj Kapur online sales coach

Episode 22 – Niraj Kapur

In this episode, Wendy is joined by Online Sales Coach Niraj Kapur from “Everybody works in Sales” a business that helps companies with their sales processes.

Steve Judge paralympian motivational speaking

Episode 23 – Steve Judge

A life-changing accident that almost claimed a life but actually birthed a mindset shift.  Making conversations about speaking count!

Imagine losing your limbs in an accident.

That’s a real human test.

Most people would fall into one of two camps.

Feel the loss, and struggle to overcome it, before essentially accepting your ‘job lot’ and just becoming a bit angry.

Many would. And they’d be forgiven.

Then there are others, who would not let it defeat them, or define them.

Steve Judge is definitely in the latter of the two camps.

Nikolas Venios the ideas agency

Episode 24 – Nik Venios

We reflect on how this business man helped his poorly mother solve a household challenge which led to a career of making conversations about ideas and innovation count. We will all eventually lose our parents. Sadly, it’s a part of life. Not many of us have to suffer that loss at the tender age of just six. We couldn’t think of a nicer guy to help us with our goal of making conversations about ideas count. Truly, if anyone can hold a conversation about ideas, it’s Nik Venios of the Ideas Agency. Did you know that NASA has a genius test? During this episode, you’ll find out all about this, and the fascinating stats surrounding it.

Jonny cooper hates marketing

Episode 25 – Jonny Cooper

Most business owners hate marketing. That’s probably because they don’t understand it. Someone who does get marketing is Jonny Cooper, and even he can’t stand it! In fact, he despises it so much, he built a business around it. Welcome to Jonny Hates Marketing! This week we’re making conversations about messaging count. Messaging is so important to get correct. Your entire marketing voice depends on it. That’s why you need to listen very carefully to Jonny Cooper.

Wendy Harris telephone trainer how to sell over the phone

Episode 26 – Wendy Harris

Wendy Harris is an expert telemarketer, who has years worth of experience in cold-calling and doing it right. Now a podcast host, Wendy shares her story and how she became an advocate for making conversations count!

Will Polston Make it happen

Episode 27 – Will Polston

Making conversations about wealth….and Clubhouse….count! Paying it forward. Acting from a position of generosity and giving within the law of reciprocity. We’re talking to Will Polston.

Ray Blakney Live Lingua

Episode 28 – Ray Blakney

Making conversations about language count… Ray Blakney is the CEO And founder of online language school Live Lingua. Can you speak another language other than your native tongue? Wendy admitted to the “Making Conversations Count” team that she doesn’t, and we can’t help but feel she’s definitely not alone.

Many Ward write my book cuddle monster

Episode 29 – Mandy Ward

Mandy Ward is a book mentor, helping people to write their own books under the company ‘Write my book’. Mandy is also an author herself, including the popular children’s book ‘The Cuddle Monster’.

Sarah Townsend copywriter survival skills for freelancers

Episode 30 – Sarah Townsend

Sarah Townsend is a freelance copywriter and best-selling author of the book ‘survival skills for freelancers’. In this episode, we discuss the importance of conversations in the freelance world, and how things can lead to many opportunities…

Paul Furlong visual branding advertiser videographer

Episode 31 – Paul Furlong

Paul Furlong is part of Opus Media, producing TV advertising, videos, and photographs for businesses. He knows a thing or two about visual branding, and is considered a advertising guru!

Masami Sato founder B1G1

Episode 32 – Masami Sato

Masami Sato set up the B1G1 initiative. Helping businesses to do good by giving back. When was the last time you gave, freely Not for tax reasons. And not because you felt awkward at a raffle. We could all always do more.

Ann Hobbs Forward thinking publishing

Episode 33 – Ann Hobbs

Ann Hobbs helps people to self-publish their books with Forward Thinking Publishing. She is also a coach and author of her book ‘Kick ass your life’, helping people to push through adversity.

Kim-Adele Platts Career development coach

Episode 34 – Kim-Adele Platts

Kim-Adele Platts, Career Development Coach. Making Conversations about Leadership Count! If you don’t believe in yourself how do you expect others to? This was a question and topic that surfaced during this powerful and insightful conversation with Kim-Adele Platts.

Marina Hauer branding specialist for coaches

Episode 35 – Marina Hauer

Marina Hauer is a branding specialist for independent coaches. Are you using three different brand ‘voices’ in your marketing efforts? We’re making conversations about branding count!

David Smith MBE paralympian

Episode 36 – David Smith

David Smith MBE is a Paralympian in the sport Boccia. Do you know what Boccia is? David tells you in this episode all about the most inclusive Paralympian sport that helps people with their independence.

Graham Nash accountant

Episode 37 – Graham Nash

Graham Nash, BusinessWise Accountants, has worked in many fields over the years and the one common denominator has been helping business turnaround.

Ian Genius sales coach

Episode 38 – Ian Genius

Ian Genius is the sales coach to help you gain confidence in sales. His Ingenious technique helps clients see the value of your best package to COMMAND a higher price.

Jennie Erikson voice over artist

Episode 39 – Jennie Eriksen

Jennie Eriksen is a voice over artist, her company name is Lovely Voice. She helps her intended listener to learn by being able to bring characters to life.

Stella Da Silva employability trainer

Episode 40 – Stella Da Silva

Stella Da Silva talks about vocations in this episode, as a specialist employability trainer she shares her insider knowledge.
What skills do you need to be employable?

Hypnotist Jonathan Chase

Episode 41 – Jonathan Chase

Look into my eyes! You will feel very sleepy! You guessed it, we’re having one of our many conversations that count with hypnosis star Jonathan Chase.

Brynne Tillman social sales link

Episode 42 – Brynne Tillman

Brynne Tillman is a social selling expert. Her company ‘Social Sales Link’ teaches the importance of connection for selling on LinkedIn and other platforms.

Ruth Driscoll

Episode 43 – Ruth Driscoll

Ruth Driscoll supports people through toxic relationships. Her company the ‘life liberator’ takes her personal experiences to help others.

Rob Begg mindset coach

Episode 44 – Rob Begg

Rob Begg is a results based mindset coach to business leaders & teams. In this episode, he talks about your ego and self-limiting beliefs many of us hold.

Dan Knowlton video advertising

Episode 45 – Dan Knowlton

Dan Knowlton and his brother Lloyd run Knowlton – a social media and video advertising company who create unique, funny content to stop the scroll.

Sudhir Kumar

Episode 46 – Sudhir Kumar

Sudhir Kumar is an expert in social selling to grow your business, he’s written a book ‘Being Human: Marketing & Social Selling in a Digital World’.

Episode 47 – Ann Page

Ann Page is a lawyer who helps other lawyers with her courses. She teaches valuable business skills and teaches the importance of avoiding jargon.

Joe Chatham networking

Episode 48 – Joe Chatham

Joe Chatham set up USA 500. It’s an exclusive member-based organization focusing on sharing his expertise in marketing relationships and networking.

Larry Long Jnr

Episode 49 – Larry Long Jnr

Larry Long Jnr is a sales coach that helps give people, teams, and organizations the motivation to go from good to great.

pete cann laughter man

Episode 50 – Pete Cann

Larry Long Jnr is a sales coach that helps give people, teams, and organizations the motivation to go from good to great.

Hear what people are saying about the show

I love this podcast. The guests you have on all bring something new to the conversation and definitely thought-provoking.

Sometimes this means I change something I do, or something I would say, and other times it’s a real opportunity for reflection.

Thanks for sharing your guests with us Wendy, the podcasts are brilliant.

Paula Senior

I always enjoy listening to Wendy’s Making Conversations Count podcast and admire her talent for drawing out people’s stories and getting to the heart of things for finding out what makes them tick.

We all have pivotal moments and Wendy manages to find the right parts, showcasing the reasons why someone is who they are.

It’s those details that we connect to and come to more understanding of why people do what they do.

Heidi Medina

Love this podcast series. It’s a great idea to have a theme of ‘pivotal conversations’ and the variety of guests from massively different backgrounds keeps it fresh and interesting.

Wendy is a natural host and makes people feel at ease to share their stories.

Andrew Deighton

If you never want to miss an episode, subscribe to our newsletter.

For weekly email reminders, sneak-peeks of the best bits before anyone else & useful resources.
Sign me up