The science of using silence in sales calls and learning the real psychology of selling so you can avoid your revenue dying and create stunning profit reports!
Do you know how to get the best from your sales calls? You soon will.
How’s your knowledge of the O.C.E.A.N? We’re about to get some major insight into the art of using the real psychology of selling by using silence in sales calls!
After listening to or reading this episode you’ll definitely see improvement in your own sales call results!
We’re making conversations about silence in sales calls count, with Catherine Brown – Episode 93!
Ok, here’s the science part.
Who is Catherine Brown and what does she do?
Most people think of sales as a hard, fast-paced world where the only goal is to make a quick buck. However, Catherine Brown, Founder of ExtraBold Sales, is working to change that negative connotation. In her book “How Good Humans Sell: The Proven Path to B2B Sales Success”,
Catherine covers topics such as focusing on sales training within businesses, and taking your strategies to the next level with a need/want hierarchy. What we’re particularly interested in for the sake of this episode though, is her take on using the science of silence in sales calls. This is also a major focus of the book, as Brown believes that it is essential for salespeople to learn this particular skill.
With her helpful insight, any person or business involved in sales, will learn how to improve their sales processes and succeed in the long run from listening to this episode.
But this episode is not her book, and we couldn’t resist tapping her up for even more of her wonderful knowledge.
For instance, she talks us through some research on the Big Five personalities named O.C.E.A.N.
Ok cool. What is O.C.E.A.N?
It’s an acronym for Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion-Introversion, Agreeableness and Neuroticism.
She explains how some of that research bounces around within the sales dynamic, and how once you understand it, you can apply it to your own sales journey.
Scroll down to continue reading this episode in which Nicola Buckley shares how you can get working on finding your passion and purpose in life and business!
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How has sales changed over the years?
Sales has always been about connecting with customers and understanding their needs, but the process has definitely evolved over the years. In the early days, sales was all about face-to-face interactions and building relationships. This was a slower process, but it resulted in more successful sales in the long run.
We talked all about this with previous guest Niraj.
How is selling different now then?
Nowadays, sales is often done over the phone or online, which can be a more difficult task.
It’s harder to build a rapport with someone when you’re not face-to-face, but it’s still possible to be successful.
One of the most important things to remember in sales is that your customer’s needs come first. If you can understand what they need and provide a solution, you’ll be successful.
But there’s a bit more to it than that, even still.
What if you know what they need, and can provide the solution, but you’re struggling to convey that solution to them?
And this is where the magic of using silence in sales calls really sparkles…
Let’s get bold and explore the real psychology of sales
Catherine’s brand is called “Extra Bold Sales” and she’s teaching people all about the simple mistakes they’re making that are killing their chances of making the sale.
In many cases, they’re easy fixes. But if you don’t know you’re committing these faux pas, you’re going to find it difficult to stop doing so.
We’ve talked about being bold before on the show, when we had Fred Joyal on.
And in that episode, in case you didn’t yet get a chance to listen yet (click above to do so), he talked about doing some pretty brave things in order to achieve your goals and dreams.
Not a million miles away, the ‘extra bold’ Catherine refers to is her ability to help a client reach their targets and really push through their limits, but without coming across as pushy or annoyingly aggressive.
Because believe it or not, even sales professionals themselves these days feel like sales people have become pushy and ’embarrassing’.
Strapped for data? You can hear a lower-bandwidth version of the episode here.
Want to read the transcript right now? You can do so here.
Relevant quote from Catherine Brown as featured in the episode transcript
“My research shows that both business owners as well as the full time sales professionals they hire all, when polled anonymously, all will reveal that they feel that the sales profession is pushy and a little bit embarrassing and they are concerned about how they will be perceived in the sales process.
And I knew that would be true of the owner seller because entrepreneurs don’t start businesses to be the seller.
They can’t wait till they can hire a seller.
But the part that was very surprising to me and to me, important work as a contribution in the body of kind of what we know about sales now is that you can’t build a team where you don’t have some of this reluctance inside the team of people who volunteered and took this job of fulltime sales because there’s bad actors out there.
We all know that stereotype.
We all want to be perceived as a good human.
And so that disconnect between, gosh, I really think my product helps people, but I don’t want them to think I’m being too pushy.
I believe almost everyone struggles with it.”
Watch the episode promo!
Managed to catch the previous episode yet? Click play on the player below to listen!
You had one job! Why don’t sales people actually want to sell?
There are many reasons why sales people struggle with selling, but one of the biggest reasons is that they don’t actually want to sell. They may think they do, but when it comes down to it, they don’t want to be, as Catherine puts it, ‘pushy’ or ‘aggressive’.
They may also find it difficult to build a rapport with their customers, and this can be a big obstacle in sales.
If you’re not able to connect with your customer and understand their needs, it’s going to be very difficult to sell them anything.
This is exactly where the science of silence in sales calls really comes into its own.
See, you’re understanding now why you really do need to listen to this episode and get Catherine’s tips, aren’t you?
Here it is.
Another point is that sales people may also struggle with self-doubt and lack of confidence.
This can be a big problem when it comes to sales because if you don’t believe in yourself, it’s going to be very difficult to sell anyone else on your product or service.
So those are some of the biggest reasons why sales people may not actually want to sell.
If you’re struggling with any of these issues, make sure you listen to this episode for some great tips from Catherine.
The big reveal! The science of silence in sales calls!
During the episode when Wendy presses Catherine on how listeners can really ramp up their sales performance, she offers some advice.
And it’s good advice…
(Relevant quote from the episode
“Well, I think I’ll take a side I think I’m going to say anyone who wants to become great at a craft and a profession needs to practice.
So it goes back to that earlier point we’re making about being open, constantly refining and testing ideas.
So I don’t think winging it.
Although there might be some aspects of developing relationships that are easier for some people than others.
I don’t think when it gets down to how many calls to make and understanding my KPIs and managing myself and running a call so that my prospect talks most of the time and I don’t do most of the talking because we need them to talk so we understand whether we can be helpful and they feel connected to us.
Those things take practice and so I’m going to fall on the practice side.
The question that often comes up in conversations that is similar to what you’re saying but not exactly what you’re saying that might still be interesting to your listeners is that sort of introversion extroversion question…”
…but the advice that follows is insanely good.
Oh yes. You totally want to know more about the introversion extroversion question, and how it leads to learning the science of using silence in sales calls, don’t you?
And Catherine also shares with us her incredible insight gleaned from spending a lot of time researching Audio only apps like Clubhouse, in order to ascertain what it was that made some speakers successful and how they stood out from those who weren’t.
This episode of “Making Conversations Count”, in which Catherine Brown shares how important it is to learn the science of silence in your sales calls, covers:
- The evolution of sales
- Catherine is another bold one and explains the real psychology of sales
- Why sales people don’t want to sell
- The science of silence in sales calls
- Catherine’s conversation that counted and why she’s now grateful for rejection
Wendy shares her own process with training people on how to sell on the phone, and how she applies a “traditional framework with intuition” and a “holistic approach” to selling.
Loved this conversation with Catherine and really enjoyed discussing the importance of using silence in sales calls to gain a power dynamic advantage.
It’s another episode that really helps business owners and entrepreneurs to solve a very real problem with some very actionable tips.
Salespeople may not want to sell because they struggle with self-doubt and lack of confidence, or because they find it difficult to understand their prospects.
Thanks to this conversation they’ll be able to apply the science of using silence in sales calls to help them focus on their prospects and understand their needs.
I also enjoyed sharing my own processes for training salespeople.
Please do let us know your take-aways from this episode by leaving a comment at https;//makingconversations.studio/Review-Catherine-Brown
New to this site? Learn more about Making Conversations Count podcast:
“Making Conversations Count” is a podcast from WAG Associates founder and telemarketing trainer Wendy Harris.
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Dynamic read-along transcript
Fancy repeating the experience of making conversations count? Here's another chance to hear a popular previous conversation - on a similar theme to the one you just heard.
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Spoiler alert: want to read the conversation that counted in this episode about using the science of silence in sales calls with Catherine Brown?
You like to ruin the plot twist huh? OK, not judging. Here you are.
Kind of brings us to the part of the show where I always ask every guest about that one conversation that changed your life either personally or in business. So. Over to you, Catherine.
There’s so many that you could choose from. I have one that was a conversation of rejection and what I made that rejection mean and what it means to me now. So quick background on it. When I had my business to business telemarketing firm, which I had for 17 years, I developed strategic partnership relationships with a number of other kinds of firms. So if you were a management consulting firm, you would get in there and see when people needed sales calling help, so they would send me business. Or if you were a PR firm, people who might come to you for PR, you would say, you know, I’d love to sell your public relations help, but really you need more sales people. So I was constantly getting referrals, which was part of my strategy for my own selling right, was that people would make warm introductions for me and say, you can trust her and her team of sales callers, because that’s a real as you know, it’s a real thing to trust someone to sell for you. Well, there was a partner that I had who gave me so many referrals, and we did so much work together, back and forth of helping one another that we began to have conversations about actually merging our businesses. Or probably she was bigger than I was. Probably my vision was that she would buy me out in some way and that we would come together. And we had several conversations about this, and this was years ago, and I was really excited about that direction. And I got as far as getting a consultant to help me to put my books together, to really look at what evaluation would look like, and started going down this conversation path. And she ended up bringing in some advisors on her side who looked at my books, who looked at what they offered, what I offered, what I said I wanted, what she said she wanted. And in the end, this partner decided not to go forward. And I don’t want the partner to be embarrassed if they hear the podcast. So I’m going to be a little bit vague about it out of respect for them. But there was a conversation that really stands out in my mind. The way I remember it. That really felt very painful because I came away from that conversation feeling like they just didn’t perceive there’d be enough value to them by going forward. And that might not be what they said at all. I think what we’ve all learned with relationships, with people is what sticks with us sometimes has to do with us.
The story we tell ourselves.
That’s right. It’s not what they say, it’s what we think they said based on the filter that comes in. So truly, Wendy, I don’t know anymore because it was so many years ago, I don’t know what was really said because I cannot possibly remember it objectively, but what I took from it was, we don’t want to go forward. This isn’t a good fit for us and this isn’t valuable enough to us. And so I was just really crushed. And I look back now, I think probably disproportionately crushed. It was fine. I ended up regrouping and looking at what I really wanted and deciding what the next evolution of my business would look like. And it worked out great. It worked out fine. It was very painful at the time because that conversation and the way I received the words felt like a rejection. And I look back now and I think I did not trust myself and my own intuition and I was really kind of looking for a rescue of what my next version of my business would look like. I kind of created a story like if I go this direction, it will look like I’ve had a successful exit and then I’ll have a partner and then it’ll all turn out right. And really under a lot of it. I was a little bit unsure about what to do next. I felt insecure as a leader, so I was particularly crushed when it didn’t work out because it forced me to have this land in my lap and say, you have a business with people reporting to you. What are you going to do? Do you want to keep it? Do you not want to keep it? What is the next iteration look like? That was a painful business conversation to be rejected, to get pretty far down a possible merger acquisition conversation and then have them say that they didn’t want to go forward. It really stung at the time. But the lessons I took from that were that I learned for myself that I will often go look for a partner or look for someone that way because I feel scared. Because I feel nervous and so for me to invest in myself. To be a leader. To trust my own intuition. To get coaching. To get help. To ask for what I need to grow in the direction I need. I was forced to do that in that moment and I look back now and think I don’t think I was crazy for thinking we would be good partners. We shared a lot of the same clients so I know it was not a bad idea, it just wasn’t the right thing for them at that time and so for me to reframe that story and say what can I take from that? And recognize that that was really a gift because it revealed some things in my own personal professional development that I needed to work on. That’s what I take from it now and I don’t have any hard feelings and I see these great lessons that came from it even though it was somewhat painful.
No similar situation has arisen for me in the past where it’s those growing pains, isn’t it, that you have, and it can feel quite crushing but actually what you do take away is I am enough whilst I need to be bigger, bolder, stronger, whatever that adjective is the root cause of all of those things is you, isn’t it?
Yes and that you realise that everyone that you perceive who is so successful you realise they have advisors, they have strengths and weaknesses, they have things they do that scare them, they have things that are hard for them, they have ways, they need help, it’s just so easy and we can blame social media if we want, right? People put their best foot forward, they put themselves out there. I certainly try to put a good face out there that’s attractive. That will make people want to work with me and the reality is that everybody are people who have these issues and insecurities and these painful experiences will show you what’s really there and if you can learn from them then it was not a failure and you can grow and that kind of comes full circle to our earlier part of our conversation is that what can I take from it so that I go forward in my life and work on the areas that need attention to be the leader I want to be. And it was a little bit embarrassing and painful at the time and I really can think of them so fondly and say thank you for that experience now because enough time has passed.
That’s the benefit of hindsight, isn’t it? Looking back and going if that hadn’t happened, this wouldn’t have happened.
Because it really came out of my continuance of that was fairly early in my telemarketing business life and so I invested a number of more years in that business and it was actually the repeat things I learned from the clients that made me realise there is a gap in sales training material out there. No one is talking about beliefs as much as I think they should. Every client says, I just need more leads. If you get me in front of more people, I’ll be fine. It’s not true. And I needed more time to become convinced of those things. So that when I decided that I wanted to take a pivot in a different direction and focus more on training. I had such rich experiences that led to that. That built my confidence for me to say, there is an opportunity here. I can run a study, I can do the research, I can write the book, and I can show that this is a gap. And I probably needed, whatever it was another eight or ten years. I needed that for me to be where I am now. And I could never have foreseen that. I literally live in a different city. I love speaking at conferences. I’ve never done those things before. Those things all came later.
It’s the different opportunities that spur off one idea, isn’t it? And the seeds that you sow. I mean, I don’t know about you, Catherine, but I just see that we’re exactly where we’re meant to be right now. And I always say this to listeners is that if something just feels off, take a good look and see what that is. See if you can identify it. Because change is really in your control and nobody else’s.
Yes. And you can be 100% responsible and accountable for yourself. And learning to do that and learning how to listen and when to listen, I think that’s part of the journey. Some people weren’t trained to do that and were told they couldn’t trust themselves and so they have to learn to do that. I love to talk about all of these things, so I really particularly, Wendy, appreciate that question you ask at the end. It was a fun reflection to think what have been significant conversations that were a turning point for me. And so I really love how you run the podcast and I’m so glad that you asked me to be a guest. Thank you.
Thank you, Catherine. You’re just giving me goosebumps.
It’s really cool. I think your whole structure and energy for it is really cool. Thank you.
It’s been my pleasure, honestly, because I do watch what you’re doing and I just think that it’s fantastic. So when you reach out, listeners, please say Wendywoo sent you.
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Freddy vs Jason (1m13s)
What Tyler does now (4m10s)
Everyone says you need to sell the benefits. It's actually more about selling the solution! (8m30s)
Tyler's favourite family trip (13m39s)
Mannerisms. Hmmmm… (26m10s)
Tyler’s conversation that counted (39m50s)
Freddy vs Jason (1m13s)
Just looked up your IMDb.
How's that for you?
Well, I'm just surprised that you are a good and all round sort of sane individual, having been on "Freddie versus Jason". I was like...."ahhh can't look!"
So the funny thing is that almost everybody gravitates to that production. Like you were in Freddy versus Jason. I'm like, let me tell you....
I've not seen it.
...how very little I am in Freddy versus Jason. Like, blink and you miss me. And yet so many people actually know the scene when I explain it. And the people who have seen the movie, I know exactly who you are.....the counselor. I'm like, you don't know. And they're like, explaining the scene, and I'm like, oh, you do know. How do you know? I am so much nothing in that film. The funny thing is I got that role because I was actually doing photo double stand in and stunt work on that movie. And they needed somebody who could do this thing last minute.
Put that broom down.
Yeah, almost like that. So no word of a lie. For, like, three weeks prior to it, I was doing stand in work. And most stand in work, you just kind of sit in your chair off screen and just kind of wait and watch the actors do their thing. And I was doing almost nothing. I was literally sleeping on set.... "Annette wants to talk to you". That's extras casting, by the way. That's not main casting. That's extras casting. And I was like, oh. And I thought I was about to get fired because sleeping on set. Because she had come to set and Annette never comes to set. And I was like, oh, fuck. I'm like, "Hi". She's like, "hey". I'm like, "you're remarkably cheery. What's going on?" Because I'm still in a sleep haze. And she's like, "hey, do you want to do a speaking role?" I'm like, "I'm your extras ca.... Sure. I'm confused right now." And then she explained what was going on, and I was like, okay, sure. Let's do this thing. Why not? Two lines. That was all it was.
See, I just thought I'll have a look and see because I know you'd say you'd done childhood acting, and I thought I'll go and have a look. And I've been playing around, and the podcast is on IMDb. So I thought, oh, I can credit him now. That's cool.
Oh, that's awesome.
Fast forward 20 years to the grown up job that you're doing now then Tyler is...
I'm an adult, babysitter.
You're the manny.
What Tyler does now (4m10s)
Just for the sake of the listeners, tell us what you do now.
I wear many hats, primarily. I am now a best selling author and speaker coach. So I train people on how to give better presentations, feel more confident speaking to groups of people. And then I also run a safety consulting company. And you would think the two would be wildly disparate, that they just don't blend. But I actually got into the safety speaking or more specifically, the public speaker training from my safety consulting practice, because I found that the biggest hindrance to leadership being able to communicate their safety program and implement it. And in fact, the reason that my company is called Total Buyin is because the reason people couldn't get buyin was they had a very poor way of communicating and most people struggle with this public speaking persona. So my most popular training course was actually my "Power To Speak Naked" Course, which was rebranded to the "Power To Speak Naked", just to have a little bit more pop and sizzle!....
Not in my mirror!
Originally it was called Basic Instructional Technique because I liked the acronym. It was B.I.T. I'm going to give you a B.I.T.
And the funny thing is, it was a way to trick people into learning how to public speak without thinking they were going to public speak. But I found that a lot of people felt ambushed by it because when they realised that two days was going to be public speaking and only public speaking, they were like, I don't public speak. And I'm like, Actually, you do. Yeah. The safety consultant kind of morphed into this public speaker training, which has really brought my life full circle. Right. You go from child actor to retiring after 20 years, because you get to do that. So I got to retire at 25, go back to school, get an engineering discipline, start my own business, watch that business crumble and fail, and then start to find my path in safety. And that was a weird detour too, becoming a safety professional after being a geomatics professional just because I had to take all this training to run my Geomatics company, to be compliant with the government. And all of those little twists and turns have brought me to this culmination of being able to, A, speak to executives on their level in a very sympathetic and understanding way, but also show them how they can communicate to everyone and vary their message and train them to be more effective communicators. It has just been bizarre and remarkably rewarding.
I don't know about you, Tyler, but don't you find it fascinating that really, it boils down to we're all in sales, it doesn't matter what it is that you're talking about, you've just got to find that something that you are happy and passionate to communicate about.
Yeah, no, we're all selling something. And I think that's the thing that I really was a light bulb moment for me when I was explaining safety, because I heard it all the time. Right. As a safety professional, your job is to sell safety. And I'm like, is it, though? And in my head, I was like, no, but really, it's about communicating. And then I'm like, well, sales is communication. And so, yes, we are all selling something, even if it's a belief in ourselves. Right? We need to communicate that vision of us so that other people can buy into that vision of us. I find it amazing that's kind of what the world boils down to is we're all selling something.
Everyone says you need to sell the benefits. It's actually more about selling the solution!
And the first lesson we have to buy into... going to stay on brand... is the belief in ourselves, isn't it? That's the first lesson. And when it comes to anything at all, then it doesn't matter. I have this conversation with many a guest, is that we all think we're selling an outcome, yet in actual fact, what we want to feel is the transformation. So that's what we're buying into, isn't it? You can do this, but that's going to mean this as well. So often it's the byproducts that we want more than the thing.
Yeah, it's funny, I was reading an article yesterday about good presentations and everybody thinks they need to sell the benefits and features and the reality is you need to sell the solution. And a lot of times that solution comes with identifying what the problem is to begin with and how for a lot of us, the problem is our own lack of belief in our own abilities. And so the first person that we need to sell to is ourselves. Like, what makes you capable of doing that? And I know for me, I've spoken on stage to tens of thousands of people. I've performed to auditoriums of thousands of people. I have in my band played to an outdoor venue that was almost hundreds of thousands of people. I think that when we played our venue there was 90,000 people. And like that everybody looks at me and goes, well, aren't you scared? I'm like, well, at that point, no, I wasn't scared of that. But let me tell you something that does terrify me. Sitting in an executive's office who earns millions of dollars every year and telling them that they're really bad at public speaking and helping them get there because... you want to talk about an inferiority complex, I'm like, who am I to be coaching this person? And they're looking at me going, how does he get up on stage every day and not feel terrified?
They're disproportionate, aren't they, in terms of comparison?
Exactly. And that's the thing. As soon as we recognise that we are all people and we all struggle with some of these self doubts, we all struggle with self doubt. It's just what are we doubting in that time? And for me, it's been remarkably freeing to be able to recognise that I have this skill set, this is the thing that I'm good at. And lucky for me, it only took 42 years to get to this point because there are people who don't know what they're good at for years and years and years and years. They spend all this time chasing the tiger tail and just doesn't they never catch it. And for me, I feel really blessed that I've been able to mash up all of my strengths and be able to compensate for my areas of improvement by outsourcing the people who do it way better than me. I'm not a good business man, which is hilarious because I technically own three companies now and will be starting a fourth one this year. Yeah, apparently I'm a masochist as well. But I recognise where I am, where my strengths are, and that is being able to give very clear direction, communicate an idea, and allow then people to go on their own. I'm very good at marshaling and connecting people, and then I have this really good skill set of being able to stand up on stage and just engage a crowd. And that has allowed me to do some really, really amazing things with my life and have just a really fun lifestyle, too. Like, I get to travel with my daughter. That's cool. That's really fun for me. And a high value on my hierarchy, too, is family. So to be able to bring her and have her a part of what I do, to be able to book vacations with the whole family around a speaking schedule and tour and make it a paid vacation... Like all those things are just really fun.
Tyler's favourite family trip (13m39s)
Double barrel question. What would you say your favorite trip with her has been? And what would you say her favorite trip with you has been?
You know, it's funny. You'd think it was going to Houston, but I actually think her favorite trip with me was when we went to the houseboat with my brother and sister in law. And the fact that I had the time to do that, that's the other thing too. My wife was in Ireland, and it was a long weekend here in Canada, except tember long weekend. I believe everybody else was going back to school, but Kenzie at that time would have been four, and so she didn't have school. And Jen and I... my wife and I had basically swapped Kenzie at the airport. I was coming back from a speaking engagement, and Jen was flying out to Ireland, and I think we didn't quite do the hand off at the airport, but it was pretty close. There's, like a day overlap. Hi, how are you? And my sister in law phoned me, and she said, hey, we've got the boat for the weekend, actually for the week. Did you want to join us? And I had nothing on the go. And so I looked at Kenzie, I'm like, do you want to go hang out at the lake? She's like, sure. And we packed up all the floaty stuff, and we went out to the house boat, and nobody else could make it because everybody else had things that were starting because it was the end of September. And so we basically toured around with Captain Jim and found a private beach and docked the boat and floated around the lake for four or five days. And Kenzie had an absolute blast. Like, she was uncovering rocks. She was going for hikes, she was swimming, and the houseboat had a water slide off the back of it. She's terrified to go off the water slide until Daddy took her the one time, and then she was still terrified to go off it. But then she wanted to do it again. Just all the things she still talks about it to this day, to the point where we ended up going houseboating again with Jen the following year. And she's like, I thought this was going to be more fun. You made it sound like it was more fun. I was like, I don't know what to tell you, babe. This is basically what we did the last time. This is a lot of fun for us. She's like, nah, this is not my thing.
But isn't it interesting? Because what Kenzie has done really, is she's overcome some fears as well. And she's done that with dad holding a hand.
Yeah, well, she does that a lot, too. Unfortunately, my daughter is the child of a former child actor, and I know the industry inside and out. So when I saw my daughter for the first time, I'm like, oh, wow, you look like an alien. And then about a week later, she stopped looking like an alien. It was just absolutely adorable. And then, so my next thought was like, you need to be in film. And everything in me was like, but your daddy can't be a stage daddy. No. And so she was in her first commercial before she was a year old. The first time she was on film, she was eleven months old. And I think she got her first modeling gig. She was coming up 22 months. Like, she wasn't yet two. It's actually that photo, that modeling gig photo is the cover of my cell phone because I absolutely love it. They captured an innocence about my child that I can't even replicate or duplicate because I see the terror that she is when I try to put her to bed.
You can't control what she dreams about either, Tyler.
But I've watched her grow up in film and be able to communicate to me, too. Like, Covid was really hard on her because she really enjoyed auditions prior to Covid because it meant that she got to go and see other kids. And in the audition room, they always had toys and she got to meet people and be social. My daughter is very, very social. And then when she got to go into the casting session, daddy couldn't come. It was just her and the casting director. Daddy had to wait outside and then she got to go and she got to play. And then if she got the role, she got to go on set. And I could come with her, but she got to be on camera. And Daddy didn't, except for the couple of times where we've gotten to do things together, which has been super fun, too. And then when Covid came and we switched from casting in person to casting virtually and doing self tapes, she hated it because casting was no longer getting dressed up and getting pretty and memorizing lines in the car ride to the running, rehearsing lines in the car ride to the audition.
It's all the anticipation, though, in the build up, the interaction of it all.
Yes. Because now it was coming down into the basement and reading with Daddy again, and I'm so proud of my daughter, because about the fifth audition into it, she was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm like, Baby, you love being on set. She's like, yeah, but I need to be on set if it means I have to go down to the basement and audition. And I was like, you are so mature. And for five. I love you. I was so proud. But she's overcoming those fears and finding her voice, which I shouldn't be surprised, because I dedicated my book to her and said that very thing. I was like, May you always have the courage to find your voice and know that you will be heard. So if I'm going to say that in the book, if I'm going to put it in writing, I'm going to put it out the universe, obviously she's going to be able to do that.
Well. I think it's fascinating that there are parents out there that do this, put on to their children, their dreams, that sort of didn't happen in one thing or another. And you're not describing a child who doesn't have a mind of her own, which is great.
So have you got any plans to bring her on stage with you at a speaking gig? Do you think she would handle that?
Would she handle it? Absolutely. Will I do it? If she wants to? Honestly, we do the things that she wants to do. If I was a stage dad, I'd be like, no, you've got to audition because this is paying for your education. Because that's how I paid for my education. You start acting at six years old and 75% of your earnings go into a trust that builds up quickly, especially if you have good financial management with it. Was I sad a little bit when she stopped wanting to do it? Yeah, I was, because I see how much she enjoys it and I was sad that it was ruined for her but, you know, she also asked me a couple of weeks ago, she's like, Daddy, over the summer, can I start auditioning again? Sure. You don't have school. If that's what you want to do, we'll do it.
It's a double edged sword, isn't it, Tyler? Because she's clearly... there are two sides to this. She's missed the auditioning, but she's also missed her thing with Daddy. She's got to be an element of that as well.
Yeah, I think that has a bit to it, too. And so to your original question, would I bring her on stage? Absolutely. Because she loves that environment the same way that I do. But I would only bring her on, first of all, if it served a purpose, because that's the other thing, too, for me, I don't do anything on stage unless it serves a purpose, and more specifically, if it serves the audience. If it isn't going to be a benefit to my audience, I'm not going to bring my kid on stage just as a gimmick. Is she super cute? Yeah. Could I sell more programs if I put her up there? Absolutely I could, because you don't want to deny this child something. So buy Daddy's program and it would sell. But hey, I'm not going to exploit my daughter that way.
No, but look, if I was in the audience and she came on stage and it was like the audience could ask her anything, I would just say, how much has Daddy paid you to do this? And I can just imagine her going, oh, no, I asked. Right? Now if you imagine that's the kind of endorsement, isn't it, that anybody would really want us as a parent or for any kind of fan. The fact that it's such a personal relationship just kind of strengthens that for me. So I just think there could be something in this. I can see this going somewhere.
Yeah, I think you're right. It is a testament to her free will and the fact that my training works because she would want to do it as opposed to not want to do it. But I don't know what next month holds. I don't even know what the next hour holds. So I don't know what her wants and desires are going to be as she grows up and she kind of ebbs and flows out of a want for the spot. She's really, truly... they say that a child is a reflection of their parents, and she is. My wife and I are truly polar opposites. We are Ying and Yang. Right now. You want to talk the astrology, you're the ram. She's, you're the ox. Like, we are literally six years apart. She's not a tourist. She's... I believe a Pisces. So she's a water sign and I'm a fire sign. Right.
She can put you out.
Oh can she ever. But at the same time, we really complement each other because she's always allowing me and in fact, encouraging me to take the spotlight. And I'm always encouraging of her if she wants to step behind. She loves being a puppet master. First of all, she's a project manager. She loves to pull the strings from backstage. Right. Like, she is the ultimate wizard of Oz. Just don't look behind the curtain. Don't ask how the magic is done, but know that it's going to happen and it will work.
We all need a bit more of that kind of lesson.
Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And she's brilliant. So I look at my daughter and when my daughter is being very like, you can see her thinking through a problem and she's very calculated with it and her daddy is not that way. I am one of those solve it through repeated trial and error. And Jen is very methodical in the let's not error, let's get it right the first time. So she thinks through the steps where I'm like, well, let's place the cog here and if it doesn't work, round peg, square hole. Doesn't work. Okay, round peg, triangle hole. No, still doesn't work. Oh, look, there's a round hole, let's stick it through there. I will try different options and Jen tries to do the right solution the first time. And it's interesting watching Kenzie blend that and find her own way, her own path and her own voice.
There's nothing more magical is that being a parent and seeing what you influence every day, and don't realise what leaks.
Yeah, it's amazing too. Yeah. Because she'll do things you're like, oh, I'm so proud of you. And then she'll do things and I'm like, oh, do not do that. And then I go, oh, but I would have done that. Even the way that my daughter... it's a sheer mirror, right? Children are mirrors of ourselves. And I watch her get frustrated right now and I hear me in her response where she'll go "ugh". It even sounds like me. And creepishly. She looks like me when she does it right? And when she gets really upset, deeply hurt by society, she looks like her mum. Like the way that you can see her process the hurt... "and why would that happen"? And I see her mum in her instantly and it's amazing how she has become this mirror to us and patterns our behavior. So there's things that she does and I'm like, oh, yeah, just like me. And then there's things that she does and I go, that's just like me.
Mannerisms. Hmmmm… (26m10s)
Yeah. Mannerisms, it's a big topic. Mannerisms kind of bleeds out in body language, doesn't it? As well. When you're on stage and I've seen lots of different tips for what to do, people just don't know what to do with their hands, do they?
Yeah, hands, feet. And here's the thing, because people will be told, keep still. And then you're unnaturally mannequin. And then people are like, don't pace, which really don't pace. But there are times where walking and movement is necessary and people are like, well, keep your hands still or use your hands, but don't use your hands too much, but find the thing. And then there is no magic bullet or one answer. What it is, is. And you and I have had this conversation offline. So let's say for your listeners online authenticity is synonymous with self awareness. If you want to be a truly authentic presenter, you need to know who you are at your core. I am a hand talker. I am a very large personality. I'm going to express myself with my hands, with my body, with my face. I'm expressive, but I'm not using one thing. Right. Like, what president was it? I think it was Bush senior had his thumb right. This was how he would deliver it.
the hammer blow.
The hammer blow, yeah. And everybody has that one thing. I think Bob Dole did it too. No, it was not the president. It was Bob Dole had this up. Bob Dole is what Bob Dole is going to do. And it never went away. This was the only gesture that happened from the podium. That's when it becomes a mockery, where, for me, I am going to wave my hands a lot. They're going to do this round, circular motion, but I'm also going to accentuate a thing, or I'm going to point to a thing, or I'm going to use a broad, wide gesture. When it's appropriate. I'm going to use my body to express itself. One of the challenges that I always give to any one of my clients is stand still for the first 60 seconds of your talk just to see how unnatural it feels. But at the same time that it makes you hyper aware of why you want to move, because sometimes you're moving to dissipate nervous energy, and that's pacing, that's nervous pacing, and that's distracting to an audience, and it's taking away from your message. But sometimes you need to move because your body needs to move. And if you suppress that instinct because somebody told you you need to be still, you need to keep your hands still, then you become this weird robotic mannequin mime where everything is frozen and still...
And you're not on Zoom.
And you're not on zoom. Yeah. There is time for movement, and it's finding and again, this is from my theatrical background when we would do blocking. There is time for movement, and there is time for stillness. Both have their ability to enhance the dialogue that is being delivered. Both have the ability to detract from the dialogue that is being delivered. And the key is learning when is the right time for both?
So it's a lot like it depends.
Like anything in life, right? When is it appropriate to do anything? Depends on the circumstances in which you're doing it.
Yeah. I think this is why I like speaking to people like you, Tyler, that have got this fluid approach. There are frameworks that you can follow, and there are best practices that you can have key do's and don'ts. That isn't necessarily going to affect the it depends side of things. But it's going deeper into that intuition, isn't it, of your craft and what it is that you do. You can't even see my hands. I'm doing this going deeper into your craft, you know, needing bread.
Yeah. But as you need the bread, using the hands to point the arrow and show the flow like it's an illustrative thing. We all are going to do it naturally. And the thing is, it's funny because if people are just listening to the audio, they're listening to making conversations count and all they have is the audio, they can still hear that movement.
If you don't do it, your voice sounds different. You need that movement and it translates. If you were to do your podcast the next time, sitting on your hands and never move, people would be like, what is wrong with this episode? They wouldn't know, right? They couldn't see, but they would feel that it was just a little off. I was watching an unbelievable interview between two of my favorite comics, whitney Cummings and Taylor Tomlinson. And it was right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was like a few months in and somehow they were able to record live. They've done like an isolation thing. And in the conversation, Taylor was talking about how she had just recorded her first special and some of the things that she did to get with they were talking about insecurities and being a woman in comedy and some things that the men don't have to think about. And she was talking about just prior. She was promoting the special. She was on The Tonight Show and the makeup artist said, why don't you leave your hair down? You're so pretty. Why don't we just leave your hair down? And Taylor always ties her hair back because that's where she feels comfortable. And she does a lot of she's very animated when she tells her story. She reenacts a lot of the stuff and she bends over a lot. She takes physicalities. And when she's doing her storytelling, which is, by the way, fantastic thing to do when you want to tell a story. And she was talking about how she left her hair down and it threw her because comedy is very much like sports, where when you're at the top of your game, you're at the top of your game because you can do things in repetition. And her hair being loose through her off. And the Whitney Cummings was talking about how she had done a similar thing when she was filming her HBO special and left her hair down. And normally she keeps it back and she had, you know, lip gloss and her hair kept getting stuck in the lip gloss and it threw her. She's like, it's not that it was a bad set. It's that it wasn't the best set that it could be. And it's recognizing what are those things that are comfortable for us? What are those things that ground us? What are those things that illustrate the story so that we can tell the story better, so that we're not in our head, that we are connected with our body and subsequently connected with our audience? Because ultimately it's. About the audience and how do the distractions yeah. How do we give ourselves the best chance to connect with our audience, and that is to be out of our head. So I was fascinated by watching this interview at how much I related to it. Like, I have my pretalk routine that I have to do. There's the long version of it there's been nice to have, right? Like, I like it when I can walk through a venue and I can touch things. I like when I can meet with the audience prior to it and do a little bit of pre audience analysis. But my must have I have to have my five minutes backstage. I have to do my breathing exercises, I have to get my glass of water in before I go on stage. I absolutely, positively have to do my visualizations. If I don't do those things, I feel off each time. So it's finding those things that are going to serve you so that you can serve your audience.
And a lot of people would call those rituals, but they're not are they about setting yourself up for what's to come?
Yeah. And there is a form of ritual to it in that it's repeatable. So whether it's rich, do you call it ritual or whether you call it ritual?
Oh, come on. You know, I've spoken to Brad.
Yeah, yes, I do. But he had a point.
But he does have a point, and he's made a very good point of using that terminology to serve people. And that's the point, isn't it? And it's clearly it serves you by doing things in a certain way and getting prepared. And just sort of going back to your point about the movement of things and an audio and the way that you can feel that. I can categorically tell you that after 2 million or something telephone calls, that if you're having a bad day and they say, Smile when you dial, and it does help, and it helps your posture and everything, right? But if you're having a terrible day, don't do it because people can hear that still, even when you've just made that extra effort gosh, yeah. Body language. Because that hearing tall that we have is so finely tuned when it's the only thing we have.
Especially when it's the only thing we have. You know, you look at anybody who has any form of sensory deprivation, and then you have those heightened senses when you can only rely on the audio. It's amazing the cues that you can pick up on. And as you said, our brain is finely tuned to it. You know when somebody is smiling on the phone, you know when they're having a bad day. And it goes the other way, too. I've talked to people about this with energy work. We know when there's been a fight in a room, even if we've never witnessed the fight, you've walked into that room and people were like and then you get that link. You're like, oh, what is with that? And you're like and you become hyper sensitive and aware of you're walking on eggshells a little bit, because what did I just walk into? You didn't witness a fight. There was nothing you didn't see. You don't know. But you know that something went on. And we as human beings have a far better connection with each other than I think we give ourselves credit for.
It's that invisible signature, isn't it, that is left behind, which is quite something.
Well, and not only that's left behind, but that leads in front, right? Like, I have a magnetic field that travels around me, and that's leading my actions, and it's being left behind. And we literally do humans are basically big batteries. We have electromagnetic pulses running through us. That's how our body actually stays alive. When those electrical pulses stop, so does everything else, because the electrical pulses are what runs your brain in your heart. So when the electricity in your body stops, when your battery gets drained, that's when the body stops working. And anybody who's done any kind of 10th grade physics knows that if you run an electrical current through something, there is an electromagnetic wave that comes from that. That's how half of modern science measures. The body is through EKGs and your Cat scans and all the rest of it. All they're looking at is electrical pulses through your various organs. And if you have this electrical field around you, it's just a magnetic field, but like anything, you have electrons then that are moving through the air in front of you, and you have electrons that are moving through the air behind you. And you are literally affecting your environment beyond your actual physicality. And what you do with that and the energy that you're putting out, because you're literally putting out energy, is what is going to be felt. And so you got to remember, you are leading with energy just as much as you're leaving energy behind.
That's deep. And it warrants part two.
Let's do part two. Wendy.
Let's do part two. And it also leads me into let's keep these listeners awake as well. Let's fire back up those neurons.
Let's get those synapses firing, folks. Come on. Let's make this conversation count.
I want to know the conversation that counted for you, Tyler.
I've had so many, but when you said it, the first one that popped to mind was the conversation I had with my doctor, mentor and father figure growing up, Dr. Bob Corbett. I had a medical incident when I was 17 that left the left side of my body paralyzed. And I distinctly remember about a month and a half afterwards being in his office crying because my face didn't work, my body didn't work. My acting career was over, and being so frustrated with Western medicine. Here we are in the 21st century, and they can't diagnose what happened to me. Was it a stroke? Was it a bell's policy? Was it a mini stroke? Why did somebody say I had oh... I can't even remember. It just seemed so bizarre and it didn't even sound like a thing that could happen. A full body. I don't even remember. Anyway. Nobody could tell me what it was. And Bob sat me down. He said, Think of the blessing that is. I said, how is not knowing what the hell happened to me a blessing, sir? And he went, if you had a diagnosis, there would be one course of treatment which may or may not work. You had a stroke. There's nothing we can do. But we don't know what you had. So now we have the freedom to try anything. And if you can try, anything could work. In fact, everything could work. So let's start trying things and see what works. And then he quoted Edison. Edison didn't find a thousand ways not to make a light bulb right until he found the one that did. Bob has been a steady oarsman for me in my life, and what I appreciate the most about him, he really is an oarsman. He allows me to captain my ship. What's the course that we want to set, Captain? But he will be steady at the hand. If I tell him where due west. He will say, Very well, due west. He'll look at me and he says, you understand that looks like it could very possibly be bad weather. I'll say, yes. He goes, okay, let's weather this storm, then. We'll batten down the hatches. And I will keep this boat due west. And I have always been in great admiration of him and I've tried to pattern and emulate him as best I can in that he was one of the first people to teach me to like, I don't believe in finding the positive in life.
Is that if it's just never big enough?
It's not even that. What it is, is that my father passed away at six. I don't think that was a positive. I'm not going to be like, hey, dad died. Good for that. No, there's not a positive. But what I do look for is the grace in situations. There is grace in everything. My father passing away created an opportunity for me to have multiple father figures in my life, at least ten, Bob being one of them. My medical incident gave me a chance to reframe and refocus what was important to me. Really crystallize friendships, because I had incredible friend support when that happened. And in high school, that's rare too, right? I was a freak. I had a face that didn't work. The worst that my friends did was they'd make me laugh because I made this sound because I couldn't close my mouth. And it was comical. I don't blame them. It was irritating sometimes, but that was the worst that I got. How dare my friends try to make me laugh in a time of great tragedy for me.
That's what friends do.
That is what friends do. I have always looked for the grace and a lot of that came from the lessons that I learned from Bob and continually learned from Bob. He's struggling currently medically, and I'm watching what he's going through and again, how he's handling it with grace because it's got to be so frustrating for him and to witness his partial acceptance, but also pushing of experimentation, like, what is the solution? I think that's the thing that I like the most about him too. And one of the things that I learned is there's a problem? What is the solution and how can I be proactive with it? And that first conversation, 17 years old in his office, isn't this a gift? And having him look at now you have multiple solutions instead of one has influenced me for the rest of my life.
What did work?
I don't know which one. It was the kitchen sink. It was the kitchen sink that did it.
Bob is a doctor of chiropractic. His wife Joanne is a doctor of chiropractic who is a holistic practitioner. She's also an acupuncturist. So like with Jo, I was doing laser acupuncture, chiropractic and Eastern herbs and medicines. With Bob. I was doing chiropractic. They recommended me to an incredible physiotherapist. So I was doing physio. I was also taking modern medications to encourage synaptic regrowth and get neurons firing again, I did so much, and for a year I was scanned, prodded, poked and all kinds of weird stuff. And I don't know what worked, but it all kind of blended together. And did my face works now? My body works now.
You've got quite a fine face, I have to say.
Why, thank you, Wendy.
When you revealed how old you were, I was like, what?
I drink a lot of water and I moisturize. And I have a six year old daughter who keeps me spry and youthful. And I play hockey three times a week as a goaltender, so I'm never off the ice. So I get in my physical workouts and it keeps my mind sharp, I think. I hope.
But they do say, don't they, that your physical health has a really big impact on everything else. So clearly it's working for you. Well, I'm just glad for Dr. Bob and it's just so heartwarming that you're still in touch with him all these years later. I don't know anybody that has got a doctor that stuck around that long.
Well, it's funny because, again, I've been in touch with a lot of these gentlemen who helped guide me in my early years. Not as often as I'd like to, but I still talked to my physician, Dr. Spackman. I played in a band with his son for a couple of years, Dr. Bob and I.. I took him when I was made master of my lodge. Bob, he was the first person I reached out to and asked him to be at the ceremony. He influenced my life so much that not only do I feel the need to pay it forward, because a lot of the lessons that I teach from stage are things that I've learned from him, but I also feel an obligation to pay back. Like, I wouldn't have the life that I have. He was the first one to introduce me to self development. He bought me a ticket to Dr. John Demartini's breakthrough experience, and I didn't understand how profound that would be until later. And I didn't fully appreciate what kind of a gift that was until later in life. But that's the kind of man that he was. He was like, this is the thing I'm going to invest in you. This is a thing that was important for me, that I think will be important for you, and that's put me on a path. Right. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to speak on Tony Robin stage in Dallas if it were not for that seed that was planted over 20 years ago. And we never know.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Trained public speaker here.
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TL;dr - want the episode summarised in one paragraph, and in your own language? Here is it.
ENGLISH: “Openness to ideas as well as learning, not insisting on being right and being open to literally discoveries that are being made, is really high value of mine. It’s a really high value. And I’m attracted to people who I perceive are that way. And I don’t want to work with people who are not open because you’re just beating your head against the wall. But I would say, of course, no consultant really wants to do that, right? No one wants to step into working with someone who doesn’t really want to change. But I think it’s a particular high value. Like, it really gets under my skin when I find out that someone actually is quite fixed and is perfectly content with where they are, and is not on a journey in every respect to get better and keep learning. I don’t understand that. It’s a value of mine..”
إن الانفتاح على الأفكار بالإضافة إلى التعلم ، وعدم الإصرار على الصواب والانفتاح على الاكتشافات التي يتم إجراؤها حرفياً ، هو حقًا قيمة عالية لي. إنها قيمة عالية حقًا. وأنا منجذب إلى الأشخاص الذين أرى أنهم بهذه الطريقة. ولا أريد العمل مع أشخاص غير منفتحين لأنك فقط تضرب رأسك بالحائط. لكنني أقول ، بالطبع ، لا يوجد مستشار يريد فعل ذلك ، أليس كذلك؟ لا أحد يريد أن يتدخل في العمل مع شخص لا يريد التغيير حقًا. لكنني أعتقد أنها قيمة عالية بشكل خاص. على سبيل المثال ، يصبح الأمر حقًا تحت بشرتي عندما اكتشفت أن شخصًا ما ثابت تمامًا في الواقع وأنه راضٍ تمامًا عن مكان وجوده ، وليس في رحلة من جميع النواحي للتحسن والاستمرار في التعلم. أنا لا أفهم ذلك. إنها قيمة خاصة بي
SPANISH: “La apertura a las ideas así como al aprendizaje, no insistir en tener razón y estar abierto literalmente a los descubrimientos que se están haciendo, es un gran valor para mí. Es un valor realmente alto. Y me atraen las personas que percibo que son así. Y no quiero trabajar con gente que no está abierta porque simplemente te estás golpeando la cabeza contra la pared. Pero yo diría, por supuesto, que ningún consultor realmente quiere hacer eso, ¿verdad? Nadie quiere entrar a trabajar con alguien que realmente no quiere cambiar. Pero creo que es un valor particularmente alto. Realmente me molesta cuando descubro que alguien en realidad es bastante fijo y está perfectamente contento con el lugar donde está, y no está en un viaje en todos los aspectos para mejorar y seguir aprendiendo. no entiendo eso es un valor mio”
FRENCH: “L’ouverture aux idées ainsi qu’à l’apprentissage, ne pas insister pour avoir raison et être littéralement ouvert aux découvertes qui sont faites, est une valeur très élevée pour moi. C’est une valeur très élevée. Et je suis attiré par les gens que je perçois comme ça. Et je ne veux pas travailler avec des gens qui ne sont pas ouverts parce que vous ne faites que vous cogner la tête contre le mur. Mais je dirais, bien sûr, qu’aucun consultant ne veut vraiment faire ça, n’est-ce pas ? Personne ne veut travailler avec quelqu’un qui ne veut pas vraiment changer. Mais je pense que c’est une valeur particulièrement élevée. Par exemple, cela me touche vraiment quand je découvre que quelqu’un est en fait assez fixe et parfaitement satisfait de l’endroit où il se trouve, et qu’il n’est pas en voyage à tous égards pour s’améliorer et continuer à apprendre. Je ne comprends pas ça. C’est une de mes valeurs...“
GERMAN: „Offenheit für Ideen und Lernen, nicht darauf zu beharren, Recht zu haben, und offen zu sein für buchstäblich gemachte Entdeckungen, ist ein wirklich hoher Wert von mir. Es ist ein wirklich hoher Wert. Und ich fühle mich zu Menschen hingezogen, von denen ich wahrnehme, dass sie so sind. Und ich möchte nicht mit Leuten arbeiten, die nicht offen sind, weil man nur mit dem Kopf gegen die Wand rennt. Aber ich würde sagen, das will natürlich kein Berater wirklich, oder? Niemand möchte mit jemandem zusammenarbeiten, der sich nicht wirklich ändern möchte. Aber ich denke, es ist ein besonders hoher Wert. Es geht mir wirklich unter die Haut, wenn ich herausfinde, dass jemand eigentlich ziemlich fixiert und vollkommen zufrieden ist mit dem, wo er ist, und nicht in jeder Hinsicht auf einer Reise ist, um besser zu werden und weiter zu lernen. Ich verstehe das nicht. Es ist ein Wert von mir..“
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Sometimes this means I change something I do, or something I would say, and other times it’s a real opportunity for reflection.
Thanks for sharing your guests with us Wendy, the podcasts are brilliant.
We all have pivotal moments and Wendy manages to find the right parts, showcasing the reasons why someone is who they are.
It’s those details that we connect to and come to more understanding of why people do what they do.
Wendy is a natural host and makes people feel at ease to share their stories.