Get more ICP sales. Leading with the all-important, considered, and well-researched client avatar will help your business!
You need to establish your ICP for more sales. Get your client avatar figured out for business growth.
Are you doing ‘spray and pray’ marketing? Time to get started with ICP sales! Figuring out your client avatar is a game-changer.
After listening to or reading this episode you’ll definitely have more of an idea of who you’re talking to in your marketing!
We’re making conversations about marketing counts, count, with Paul and Shreya – Episode 90!
Paul and Shreya get us started in smarter marketing with insights and tips!
Big take-away quote from this conversation about figuring out your ideal client avatar to get more ICP sales – Paul and Shreya:
“The mindset is probably half the battle. Too many people, even in marketing, they take their advertising campaigns, they shut them down too early… discredit ideas. And sometimes you’re not following the right process. It’s not that marketing does not work. You’re not following the right process.”
Paul and Shreya from “Marketing Counts”, Making Conversations Count – (July 2022)
.(Hard of hearing? Transcript here).
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Who are Paul Counts and Shreya Banerjee? And what on earth do they know about ICP sales and the ideal client avatar?
The ICP sales approach (ideal customer profile-led sales) is all about understanding your ideal customer, their needs, and what motivates them.
It’s essential to have a clear idea of your ICP before you can create effective marketing campaigns that will resonate with them.
Paul and Shreya from Marketing Counts do this stuff at their most basic level of their offerings. So they’re more than qualified to talk us through it all.
In the episode, you’ll learn way more about what the principles are, and how you can take their ideas and apply them to your own business.
What we’ve learned from talking to them is that it’s important to remember that your ICP sales may not have the same long-term journey as your current average customer.
So you’ll need to do some market research to figure out who your ideal customer is.
The FTE framework can help with this by giving you a better understanding of where your ideal customers are spending their time online.
What’s the FTE framework? Good question.
We’ll be getting into that during this episode, too!
Scroll down to continue reading this episode in which Paul and Shreya share how you can totally nail down your ICP sales approach and really reach your ideal client avatar!
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Why most people get the basics wrong
Like most things in life, marketing can be boiled down to a few core principles.
But many business owners get these principles wrong, leading to ineffective and sometimes damaging marketing campaigns.
Here are the three most common mistakes that business owners make when it comes to marketing:
1. They don’t understand their ideal customer (meaning no chance of ICP sales at all)
Too often, business owners create marketing campaigns that target the general public, rather than their ideal customer.
This can be a costly mistake, as it’s much more expensive and time-consuming to market to everyone than it is to target your ideal customer specifically.
2. They don’t understand their ICP’s needs
Even if you know who your ideal customer is, you still need to understand their needs to create effective marketing campaigns.
Many business owners make the mistake of thinking they know what their ICP wants, without doing any research first.
This can lead to campaigns that are irrelevant or even offensive to your ICP.
3. They don’t use an ICP-led sales approach
Too many business owners try to sell their products or services to anyone who will listen, without taking the time to understand who their ideal customer is.
An ICP sales approach is much more effective, as it allows you to focus your marketing efforts on those who are most likely to be interested in what you have to offer.
If you want to learn more about ICP sales, be sure to listen to (or read via the printable transcript) our conversation with Paul and Shreya from Marketing Counts.
They’ll be sharing their expertise on how to create effective marketing campaigns that target your ideal customer specifically.
Click the player to listen to it.
It’s possible to resonate differently with different clientsWhen it comes to ICP sales, it’s important to remember that your ideal customer may not have the same long-term journey as your current average customer.
This means that you’ll need to create different brand voices for each of your ICPs, to resonate with them effectively.
For example, if your ICP is a young, hipster artist, your brand voice should be edgy and creative.
But if your ICP is a busy housewife and mother, or a mompreneur, your brand voice should be more down-to-earth and relatable.
The key is to understand what resonates with each of your ICPs and create marketing campaigns that speak to them directly.
Paul and Shreya explain this in the episode.
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Relevant quote from episode – click here for full transcript
“One of the key concepts we teach is creating your customer avatar. ICP. Unfortunately, if you’re starting a small business, you don’t do this because you think about everything else. But you don’t start at the basic. You don’t start at the letter A. Right. So creating your customer avatar, figuring out who that person is, we actually name it. You could have like 20 different personalities. For example, maybe you sell toilet paper. Toilet paper is for everybody. So how do you market to your key person? But there are different segments even within the toilet paper market. So some people might want the cheapest out there, some people might want the most comfiest out there. Well, those are two different customer profiles, and you’re going to have to decide. We name it, name them Sally and Matt. And Matt wants the softest one and Sally wants the cheapest one. And then when you’re speaking and designing marketing materials, you’re specifically creating stuff for Matt that’s going to speak to him. And even as an individual, I could do that. Even as a solopreneur or influencer, I could talk directly in one channel to Matt and then another channel on a different page, different landing page, different part of my website. I could talk to Sally at two different approaches. They’re still getting the information.”
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Advice for entrepreneurs who are starting out!
The synergies between Wendy’s business and Paul and Shreya’s business stretch way beyond just the name.
Paul and Shreya’s teaching of ICP sales centres around the power of conversations!
We all know that conversations can help entrepreneurs gain a clear understanding of their ICP and what they need to do to reach them.
(Relevant quote from episode. Read the full transcript here).
“Everything that I’ve built over all these years, right, is starting with communications and having a conversation and making those connections. So I’m constantly out there connecting with people on a deeper level. So Sherry, I talked about for somebody that’s doing a side hustle right now the number one best thing you can do is go to live events in person events. If it’s just a zoom event, at least that’s better than nothing. You’re going to make a connection, find a Facebook friend or a LinkedIn friend or follower and somebody that you can connect with, right? So those are immense, those relationships. You just never know where they’re going to transpire, where they’re going to lead. And we’re talking it could take three, four years later. I was talking to a friend of mine that said one of the things he learned for me over all the years we’ve known each other is that you never know the value of a relationship because he had something that happened to him and four years later, now a connection he had four years ago that he’s maintained and kind of just kept the door open, is opening up the door for a conversation that’s going to drive his new business venture forward.”
Why it’s important to try to do yourself out of a job!
Like Wendy, Paul and Shreya’s KPI for measuring how successful a client campaign has been, is how quickly they’re able to stop working with that client!
Need to understand what we mean by that?
Here you go.
(Relevant quote from episode. Read the full transcript here).
“We really, truly believe in educating. So we educate them through the process on their marketing. And then one of the core things we do is build them a marketing team underneath them. So it’s an outsource team or team internally, like working with their employees so they can get the most out of them, but put in place a graphics person, a social media person, an SEO person, to really build their marketing team so that they don’t have to rely on an agency if they don’t want to. So our goal is to work ourselves out of a job, which is very unique in the agency model.”
This episode of “Making Conversations Count”, in which Paul and Shreya shares their secrets of getting your marketing right at the basic level by generating ICP sales from a well rounded client avatar, covers:
- Why most people get the basics wrong
- How to resonate differently for different clients
- Why it’s important to try to do yourself out of a job
- Paul and Shreya’s conversations that counted
- Their advice for new and recently started entrepreneurs
In this week’s episode, we’re treated to Paul and Shreya talking us through the basics of marketing using more sensible planning and methods.
I loved how these two met and grew a business mutually beneficial and are still having their conversation that counts all the time.
It was also interesting to learn how scaling from a time based business can still be a challenge for them as scaling coaches.
That FTE framework though! Wow!
Talk about a piece of gold nugget insight.
In case you missed it (or didn’t listen yet!) the FTE is around
All important and all vital for your business success!
And they teach marketing into high school! How cool?!
Please do let us know your take-aways from this episode by leaving a comment at https;//makingconversations.studio/Review-Paul-and-Shreya
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“Making Conversations Count” is a podcast from WAG Associates founder and telemarketing trainer Wendy Harris.
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Spoiler alert: want to read the conversation that counted in this episode about ICP sales and identifying your client avatar with Paul and Shreya?
You like to ruin the plot twist huh? OK, not judging. Here you are.
It’s not often I get a couple and I know you’re not a couple because you’re in different time zones, but you work together and you’ve been working together for four years, but it’s not often that we get a couple that come with a conversation that counts to share and of course, I never know what that’s going to be. So are you ready to tell us a bit more about that conversation that created a turning point for you?
We met at a live event. So Paul was speaking and networking. We are a big proponent of networking, creating relationships, going out, meeting people, even if you’re meeting online, but meet! Like, create those relationships. We did a product launch together and since then the product launch went well and we continued and said, hey, let’s start doing live events and we started doing success count live events. Then we started to decide to create Marketing Counts and that happened and the complete shift there was Paul was very, I’m a solopreneur, I’m going to do it myself. You’re coming in, that’s great. But if we want to grow because he was against growing for some reason, I don’t know why.
That was the team point of view, I wanted to always be known because I was known as a successful solopreneur. So there was my pride that was saying, oh, I want to be the solopreneur. I’ve accomplished a lot as a solo business person and I wanted to stay that way. Yeah.
So we actually have both companies outside, individual companies outside of the success counts also. So he was like, you hire them under, you get the work done. I’m still going to be known as a solopreneur.
How foolish I was, right, looking back, because it’s like, without the teams, we wouldn’t be where we are, we wouldn’t have the time, freedom that we have again. And it’s silly, because when I had my business solopreneur, I always did everything and built very successful business. I mean, it was very successful, top seller on many platforms and very well known internationally. But there was a ceiling. You reach a ceiling in your business where you can’t go any further. And I was open to that, to knowing I needed to work with somebody that knew strategy and processes. But I would say this was unfortunately for Shreya, it was a very long conversation because I was a little bull headed.
We’re still working on it because there are times where he’s doing stuff, I’m like, Why are you doing stuff? Why don’t we have somebody doing this?
It’s more like the best part about the conversation we’re constantly having is if I’m doing, she’s like, Why are you doing that? And if you are doing, do you like to do that? Or couldn’t we get a process? So I’m getting better at that, where there’s quite a bit that we are outsourcing now.
That’s got to come down to Shreya proving that her way is better than your way.
It’s way better.
And once you’ve got that proof, that actually gives you the confidence and trust to be able to lean into other things, doesn’t it? And if you’ve just been the only person that’s been in control of everything, right? I don’t think it’s ego so much. I think sometimes it’s just it does come down to that trust piece. It’s kind of like, well, I know I’m going to get it done and if I don’t, then I can give myself a kick up the bum. I don’t want to be giving anybody else a kick up the bum.
I think that’s sometimes half of the battle, isn’t it, is that none of us want those difficult conversations of going back and sort of challenging and saying, well, it didn’t go how I wanted it.
Oh, yeah, exactly. And I had those moments in my past where I tried some of the outsourcing model, it didn’t work and really come down to it. It wasn’t their fault, the person I brought in, it was my fault because I didn’t have the proper communication with them to tell them exactly what I wanted. I didn’t have the right conversation with those people. And so Shreya brings that process approach. If you have a process to the people you bring in, then they can actually do the job effectively. It’s not about that outsourcing doesn’t work. It’s not about that a certain website you outsource on doesn’t work. It does not matter. What truly counts is having the right process. So that conversation really matter, makes it.
Also to be effective to you, you cannot hire ad hoc, like, okay, if your website is down, you need somebody, yes, go get that one person. But you have to have repeatable processes within your business to say, I’m going to hire somebody to do this particular task. So I’m not sitting there explaining to them every single time and wasting my time. I think that was a big hurdle for policy. It’s much faster for me to do it rather than try to explain this to somebody else to do it. Well, if you do it 20 times a week, explain it to the one person one time, maybe twice, that person will take over from me.
That’s exactly it’s a trick that we all fall into, isn’t it? To be successful, it’s got to be on our terms, and that’s it right. To be an entrepreneur, it’s just about you. Well, do you know what? There are many influencers that started out as individuals that built teams and didn’t necessarily employ anybody. Why is it we will go to an accountant for our taxes, we will go to a solicitor for advice on contracts? So why do we not trust other people in other types of industries, like marketing or sales and just about anything that you need? Because actually, that’s your team. It’s corporate. It’s just pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
It definitely is. That’s a really good explanation of it. It really is. And it all fits together really well, especially when you follow the process and do it right.
Just because you hire somebody doesn’t mean that that person would do it right. And that’s okay. I mean, it’s a fear we all have. But what you do is you move on to the next person. And that’s why we are big into, like, rather than doing full time in the beginning, start with the contractor, and then if that person is good, then yes, eventually that person will become full time.
But sure, you could be turning somebody’s side hustle into something really magnificent.
And it’s okay to fail just because you started doing the process and you’re good at it right now. You weren’t good at it in the beginning. You’ve worked out all this all the time.
Yes. When Brad Sugars came on the show, he said, people say to me, “I’m no good at sales calls. People are just not interested.” Ok, so how many have you made? “Four or five”. Well, four or five sales calls isn’t going to be the snapshot of success for the rest of your life in your business.
You’re going to need to do about 2 million. Hello?
We always focus on your strengths and manage your weaknesses.
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Click this box to read the full Episode Transcript - Conversation around how can a public speaking coach change your life? - "Making Conversations Count"
Freddy vs Jason (1m13s)
What Tyler does now (4m10s)
Everyone says you need to sell the benefits. It's actually more about selling the solution! (8m30s)
Tyler's favourite family trip (13m39s)
Mannerisms. Hmmmm… (26m10s)
Tyler’s conversation that counted (39m50s)
Freddy vs Jason (1m13s)
Just looked up your IMDb.
How's that for you?
Well, I'm just surprised that you are a good and all round sort of sane individual, having been on "Freddie versus Jason". I was like...."ahhh can't look!"
So the funny thing is that almost everybody gravitates to that production. Like you were in Freddy versus Jason. I'm like, let me tell you....
I've not seen it.
...how very little I am in Freddy versus Jason. Like, blink and you miss me. And yet so many people actually know the scene when I explain it. And the people who have seen the movie, I know exactly who you are.....the counselor. I'm like, you don't know. And they're like, explaining the scene, and I'm like, oh, you do know. How do you know? I am so much nothing in that film. The funny thing is I got that role because I was actually doing photo double stand in and stunt work on that movie. And they needed somebody who could do this thing last minute.
Put that broom down.
Yeah, almost like that. So no word of a lie. For, like, three weeks prior to it, I was doing stand in work. And most stand in work, you just kind of sit in your chair off screen and just kind of wait and watch the actors do their thing. And I was doing almost nothing. I was literally sleeping on set.... "Annette wants to talk to you". That's extras casting, by the way. That's not main casting. That's extras casting. And I was like, oh. And I thought I was about to get fired because sleeping on set. Because she had come to set and Annette never comes to set. And I was like, oh, fuck. I'm like, "Hi". She's like, "hey". I'm like, "you're remarkably cheery. What's going on?" Because I'm still in a sleep haze. And she's like, "hey, do you want to do a speaking role?" I'm like, "I'm your extras ca.... Sure. I'm confused right now." And then she explained what was going on, and I was like, okay, sure. Let's do this thing. Why not? Two lines. That was all it was.
See, I just thought I'll have a look and see because I know you'd say you'd done childhood acting, and I thought I'll go and have a look. And I've been playing around, and the podcast is on IMDb. So I thought, oh, I can credit him now. That's cool.
Oh, that's awesome.
Fast forward 20 years to the grown up job that you're doing now then Tyler is...
I'm an adult, babysitter.
You're the manny.
What Tyler does now (4m10s)
Just for the sake of the listeners, tell us what you do now.
I wear many hats, primarily. I am now a best selling author and speaker coach. So I train people on how to give better presentations, feel more confident speaking to groups of people. And then I also run a safety consulting company. And you would think the two would be wildly disparate, that they just don't blend. But I actually got into the safety speaking or more specifically, the public speaker training from my safety consulting practice, because I found that the biggest hindrance to leadership being able to communicate their safety program and implement it. And in fact, the reason that my company is called Total Buyin is because the reason people couldn't get buyin was they had a very poor way of communicating and most people struggle with this public speaking persona. So my most popular training course was actually my "Power To Speak Naked" Course, which was rebranded to the "Power To Speak Naked", just to have a little bit more pop and sizzle!....
Not in my mirror!
Originally it was called Basic Instructional Technique because I liked the acronym. It was B.I.T. I'm going to give you a B.I.T.
And the funny thing is, it was a way to trick people into learning how to public speak without thinking they were going to public speak. But I found that a lot of people felt ambushed by it because when they realised that two days was going to be public speaking and only public speaking, they were like, I don't public speak. And I'm like, Actually, you do. Yeah. The safety consultant kind of morphed into this public speaker training, which has really brought my life full circle. Right. You go from child actor to retiring after 20 years, because you get to do that. So I got to retire at 25, go back to school, get an engineering discipline, start my own business, watch that business crumble and fail, and then start to find my path in safety. And that was a weird detour too, becoming a safety professional after being a geomatics professional just because I had to take all this training to run my Geomatics company, to be compliant with the government. And all of those little twists and turns have brought me to this culmination of being able to, A, speak to executives on their level in a very sympathetic and understanding way, but also show them how they can communicate to everyone and vary their message and train them to be more effective communicators. It has just been bizarre and remarkably rewarding.
I don't know about you, Tyler, but don't you find it fascinating that really, it boils down to we're all in sales, it doesn't matter what it is that you're talking about, you've just got to find that something that you are happy and passionate to communicate about.
Yeah, no, we're all selling something. And I think that's the thing that I really was a light bulb moment for me when I was explaining safety, because I heard it all the time. Right. As a safety professional, your job is to sell safety. And I'm like, is it, though? And in my head, I was like, no, but really, it's about communicating. And then I'm like, well, sales is communication. And so, yes, we are all selling something, even if it's a belief in ourselves. Right? We need to communicate that vision of us so that other people can buy into that vision of us. I find it amazing that's kind of what the world boils down to is we're all selling something.
Everyone says you need to sell the benefits. It's actually more about selling the solution!
And the first lesson we have to buy into... going to stay on brand... is the belief in ourselves, isn't it? That's the first lesson. And when it comes to anything at all, then it doesn't matter. I have this conversation with many a guest, is that we all think we're selling an outcome, yet in actual fact, what we want to feel is the transformation. So that's what we're buying into, isn't it? You can do this, but that's going to mean this as well. So often it's the byproducts that we want more than the thing.
Yeah, it's funny, I was reading an article yesterday about good presentations and everybody thinks they need to sell the benefits and features and the reality is you need to sell the solution. And a lot of times that solution comes with identifying what the problem is to begin with and how for a lot of us, the problem is our own lack of belief in our own abilities. And so the first person that we need to sell to is ourselves. Like, what makes you capable of doing that? And I know for me, I've spoken on stage to tens of thousands of people. I've performed to auditoriums of thousands of people. I have in my band played to an outdoor venue that was almost hundreds of thousands of people. I think that when we played our venue there was 90,000 people. And like that everybody looks at me and goes, well, aren't you scared? I'm like, well, at that point, no, I wasn't scared of that. But let me tell you something that does terrify me. Sitting in an executive's office who earns millions of dollars every year and telling them that they're really bad at public speaking and helping them get there because... you want to talk about an inferiority complex, I'm like, who am I to be coaching this person? And they're looking at me going, how does he get up on stage every day and not feel terrified?
They're disproportionate, aren't they, in terms of comparison?
Exactly. And that's the thing. As soon as we recognise that we are all people and we all struggle with some of these self doubts, we all struggle with self doubt. It's just what are we doubting in that time? And for me, it's been remarkably freeing to be able to recognise that I have this skill set, this is the thing that I'm good at. And lucky for me, it only took 42 years to get to this point because there are people who don't know what they're good at for years and years and years and years. They spend all this time chasing the tiger tail and just doesn't they never catch it. And for me, I feel really blessed that I've been able to mash up all of my strengths and be able to compensate for my areas of improvement by outsourcing the people who do it way better than me. I'm not a good business man, which is hilarious because I technically own three companies now and will be starting a fourth one this year. Yeah, apparently I'm a masochist as well. But I recognise where I am, where my strengths are, and that is being able to give very clear direction, communicate an idea, and allow then people to go on their own. I'm very good at marshaling and connecting people, and then I have this really good skill set of being able to stand up on stage and just engage a crowd. And that has allowed me to do some really, really amazing things with my life and have just a really fun lifestyle, too. Like, I get to travel with my daughter. That's cool. That's really fun for me. And a high value on my hierarchy, too, is family. So to be able to bring her and have her a part of what I do, to be able to book vacations with the whole family around a speaking schedule and tour and make it a paid vacation... Like all those things are just really fun.
Tyler's favourite family trip (13m39s)
Double barrel question. What would you say your favorite trip with her has been? And what would you say her favorite trip with you has been?
You know, it's funny. You'd think it was going to Houston, but I actually think her favorite trip with me was when we went to the houseboat with my brother and sister in law. And the fact that I had the time to do that, that's the other thing too. My wife was in Ireland, and it was a long weekend here in Canada, except tember long weekend. I believe everybody else was going back to school, but Kenzie at that time would have been four, and so she didn't have school. And Jen and I... my wife and I had basically swapped Kenzie at the airport. I was coming back from a speaking engagement, and Jen was flying out to Ireland, and I think we didn't quite do the hand off at the airport, but it was pretty close. There's, like a day overlap. Hi, how are you? And my sister in law phoned me, and she said, hey, we've got the boat for the weekend, actually for the week. Did you want to join us? And I had nothing on the go. And so I looked at Kenzie, I'm like, do you want to go hang out at the lake? She's like, sure. And we packed up all the floaty stuff, and we went out to the house boat, and nobody else could make it because everybody else had things that were starting because it was the end of September. And so we basically toured around with Captain Jim and found a private beach and docked the boat and floated around the lake for four or five days. And Kenzie had an absolute blast. Like, she was uncovering rocks. She was going for hikes, she was swimming, and the houseboat had a water slide off the back of it. She's terrified to go off the water slide until Daddy took her the one time, and then she was still terrified to go off it. But then she wanted to do it again. Just all the things she still talks about it to this day, to the point where we ended up going houseboating again with Jen the following year. And she's like, I thought this was going to be more fun. You made it sound like it was more fun. I was like, I don't know what to tell you, babe. This is basically what we did the last time. This is a lot of fun for us. She's like, nah, this is not my thing.
But isn't it interesting? Because what Kenzie has done really, is she's overcome some fears as well. And she's done that with dad holding a hand.
Yeah, well, she does that a lot, too. Unfortunately, my daughter is the child of a former child actor, and I know the industry inside and out. So when I saw my daughter for the first time, I'm like, oh, wow, you look like an alien. And then about a week later, she stopped looking like an alien. It was just absolutely adorable. And then, so my next thought was like, you need to be in film. And everything in me was like, but your daddy can't be a stage daddy. No. And so she was in her first commercial before she was a year old. The first time she was on film, she was eleven months old. And I think she got her first modeling gig. She was coming up 22 months. Like, she wasn't yet two. It's actually that photo, that modeling gig photo is the cover of my cell phone because I absolutely love it. They captured an innocence about my child that I can't even replicate or duplicate because I see the terror that she is when I try to put her to bed.
You can't control what she dreams about either, Tyler.
But I've watched her grow up in film and be able to communicate to me, too. Like, Covid was really hard on her because she really enjoyed auditions prior to Covid because it meant that she got to go and see other kids. And in the audition room, they always had toys and she got to meet people and be social. My daughter is very, very social. And then when she got to go into the casting session, daddy couldn't come. It was just her and the casting director. Daddy had to wait outside and then she got to go and she got to play. And then if she got the role, she got to go on set. And I could come with her, but she got to be on camera. And Daddy didn't, except for the couple of times where we've gotten to do things together, which has been super fun, too. And then when Covid came and we switched from casting in person to casting virtually and doing self tapes, she hated it because casting was no longer getting dressed up and getting pretty and memorizing lines in the car ride to the running, rehearsing lines in the car ride to the audition.
It's all the anticipation, though, in the build up, the interaction of it all.
Yes. Because now it was coming down into the basement and reading with Daddy again, and I'm so proud of my daughter, because about the fifth audition into it, she was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm like, Baby, you love being on set. She's like, yeah, but I need to be on set if it means I have to go down to the basement and audition. And I was like, you are so mature. And for five. I love you. I was so proud. But she's overcoming those fears and finding her voice, which I shouldn't be surprised, because I dedicated my book to her and said that very thing. I was like, May you always have the courage to find your voice and know that you will be heard. So if I'm going to say that in the book, if I'm going to put it in writing, I'm going to put it out the universe, obviously she's going to be able to do that.
Well. I think it's fascinating that there are parents out there that do this, put on to their children, their dreams, that sort of didn't happen in one thing or another. And you're not describing a child who doesn't have a mind of her own, which is great.
So have you got any plans to bring her on stage with you at a speaking gig? Do you think she would handle that?
Would she handle it? Absolutely. Will I do it? If she wants to? Honestly, we do the things that she wants to do. If I was a stage dad, I'd be like, no, you've got to audition because this is paying for your education. Because that's how I paid for my education. You start acting at six years old and 75% of your earnings go into a trust that builds up quickly, especially if you have good financial management with it. Was I sad a little bit when she stopped wanting to do it? Yeah, I was, because I see how much she enjoys it and I was sad that it was ruined for her but, you know, she also asked me a couple of weeks ago, she's like, Daddy, over the summer, can I start auditioning again? Sure. You don't have school. If that's what you want to do, we'll do it.
It's a double edged sword, isn't it, Tyler? Because she's clearly... there are two sides to this. She's missed the auditioning, but she's also missed her thing with Daddy. She's got to be an element of that as well.
Yeah, I think that has a bit to it, too. And so to your original question, would I bring her on stage? Absolutely. Because she loves that environment the same way that I do. But I would only bring her on, first of all, if it served a purpose, because that's the other thing, too, for me, I don't do anything on stage unless it serves a purpose, and more specifically, if it serves the audience. If it isn't going to be a benefit to my audience, I'm not going to bring my kid on stage just as a gimmick. Is she super cute? Yeah. Could I sell more programs if I put her up there? Absolutely I could, because you don't want to deny this child something. So buy Daddy's program and it would sell. But hey, I'm not going to exploit my daughter that way.
No, but look, if I was in the audience and she came on stage and it was like the audience could ask her anything, I would just say, how much has Daddy paid you to do this? And I can just imagine her going, oh, no, I asked. Right? Now if you imagine that's the kind of endorsement, isn't it, that anybody would really want us as a parent or for any kind of fan. The fact that it's such a personal relationship just kind of strengthens that for me. So I just think there could be something in this. I can see this going somewhere.
Yeah, I think you're right. It is a testament to her free will and the fact that my training works because she would want to do it as opposed to not want to do it. But I don't know what next month holds. I don't even know what the next hour holds. So I don't know what her wants and desires are going to be as she grows up and she kind of ebbs and flows out of a want for the spot. She's really, truly... they say that a child is a reflection of their parents, and she is. My wife and I are truly polar opposites. We are Ying and Yang. Right now. You want to talk the astrology, you're the ram. She's, you're the ox. Like, we are literally six years apart. She's not a tourist. She's... I believe a Pisces. So she's a water sign and I'm a fire sign. Right.
She can put you out.
Oh can she ever. But at the same time, we really complement each other because she's always allowing me and in fact, encouraging me to take the spotlight. And I'm always encouraging of her if she wants to step behind. She loves being a puppet master. First of all, she's a project manager. She loves to pull the strings from backstage. Right. Like, she is the ultimate wizard of Oz. Just don't look behind the curtain. Don't ask how the magic is done, but know that it's going to happen and it will work.
We all need a bit more of that kind of lesson.
Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And she's brilliant. So I look at my daughter and when my daughter is being very like, you can see her thinking through a problem and she's very calculated with it and her daddy is not that way. I am one of those solve it through repeated trial and error. And Jen is very methodical in the let's not error, let's get it right the first time. So she thinks through the steps where I'm like, well, let's place the cog here and if it doesn't work, round peg, square hole. Doesn't work. Okay, round peg, triangle hole. No, still doesn't work. Oh, look, there's a round hole, let's stick it through there. I will try different options and Jen tries to do the right solution the first time. And it's interesting watching Kenzie blend that and find her own way, her own path and her own voice.
There's nothing more magical is that being a parent and seeing what you influence every day, and don't realise what leaks.
Yeah, it's amazing too. Yeah. Because she'll do things you're like, oh, I'm so proud of you. And then she'll do things and I'm like, oh, do not do that. And then I go, oh, but I would have done that. Even the way that my daughter... it's a sheer mirror, right? Children are mirrors of ourselves. And I watch her get frustrated right now and I hear me in her response where she'll go "ugh". It even sounds like me. And creepishly. She looks like me when she does it right? And when she gets really upset, deeply hurt by society, she looks like her mum. Like the way that you can see her process the hurt... "and why would that happen"? And I see her mum in her instantly and it's amazing how she has become this mirror to us and patterns our behavior. So there's things that she does and I'm like, oh, yeah, just like me. And then there's things that she does and I go, that's just like me.
Mannerisms. Hmmmm… (26m10s)
Yeah. Mannerisms, it's a big topic. Mannerisms kind of bleeds out in body language, doesn't it? As well. When you're on stage and I've seen lots of different tips for what to do, people just don't know what to do with their hands, do they?
Yeah, hands, feet. And here's the thing, because people will be told, keep still. And then you're unnaturally mannequin. And then people are like, don't pace, which really don't pace. But there are times where walking and movement is necessary and people are like, well, keep your hands still or use your hands, but don't use your hands too much, but find the thing. And then there is no magic bullet or one answer. What it is, is. And you and I have had this conversation offline. So let's say for your listeners online authenticity is synonymous with self awareness. If you want to be a truly authentic presenter, you need to know who you are at your core. I am a hand talker. I am a very large personality. I'm going to express myself with my hands, with my body, with my face. I'm expressive, but I'm not using one thing. Right. Like, what president was it? I think it was Bush senior had his thumb right. This was how he would deliver it.
the hammer blow.
The hammer blow, yeah. And everybody has that one thing. I think Bob Dole did it too. No, it was not the president. It was Bob Dole had this up. Bob Dole is what Bob Dole is going to do. And it never went away. This was the only gesture that happened from the podium. That's when it becomes a mockery, where, for me, I am going to wave my hands a lot. They're going to do this round, circular motion, but I'm also going to accentuate a thing, or I'm going to point to a thing, or I'm going to use a broad, wide gesture. When it's appropriate. I'm going to use my body to express itself. One of the challenges that I always give to any one of my clients is stand still for the first 60 seconds of your talk just to see how unnatural it feels. But at the same time that it makes you hyper aware of why you want to move, because sometimes you're moving to dissipate nervous energy, and that's pacing, that's nervous pacing, and that's distracting to an audience, and it's taking away from your message. But sometimes you need to move because your body needs to move. And if you suppress that instinct because somebody told you you need to be still, you need to keep your hands still, then you become this weird robotic mannequin mime where everything is frozen and still...
And you're not on Zoom.
And you're not on zoom. Yeah. There is time for movement, and it's finding and again, this is from my theatrical background when we would do blocking. There is time for movement, and there is time for stillness. Both have their ability to enhance the dialogue that is being delivered. Both have the ability to detract from the dialogue that is being delivered. And the key is learning when is the right time for both?
So it's a lot like it depends.
Like anything in life, right? When is it appropriate to do anything? Depends on the circumstances in which you're doing it.
Yeah. I think this is why I like speaking to people like you, Tyler, that have got this fluid approach. There are frameworks that you can follow, and there are best practices that you can have key do's and don'ts. That isn't necessarily going to affect the it depends side of things. But it's going deeper into that intuition, isn't it, of your craft and what it is that you do. You can't even see my hands. I'm doing this going deeper into your craft, you know, needing bread.
Yeah. But as you need the bread, using the hands to point the arrow and show the flow like it's an illustrative thing. We all are going to do it naturally. And the thing is, it's funny because if people are just listening to the audio, they're listening to making conversations count and all they have is the audio, they can still hear that movement.
If you don't do it, your voice sounds different. You need that movement and it translates. If you were to do your podcast the next time, sitting on your hands and never move, people would be like, what is wrong with this episode? They wouldn't know, right? They couldn't see, but they would feel that it was just a little off. I was watching an unbelievable interview between two of my favorite comics, whitney Cummings and Taylor Tomlinson. And it was right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was like a few months in and somehow they were able to record live. They've done like an isolation thing. And in the conversation, Taylor was talking about how she had just recorded her first special and some of the things that she did to get with they were talking about insecurities and being a woman in comedy and some things that the men don't have to think about. And she was talking about just prior. She was promoting the special. She was on The Tonight Show and the makeup artist said, why don't you leave your hair down? You're so pretty. Why don't we just leave your hair down? And Taylor always ties her hair back because that's where she feels comfortable. And she does a lot of she's very animated when she tells her story. She reenacts a lot of the stuff and she bends over a lot. She takes physicalities. And when she's doing her storytelling, which is, by the way, fantastic thing to do when you want to tell a story. And she was talking about how she left her hair down and it threw her because comedy is very much like sports, where when you're at the top of your game, you're at the top of your game because you can do things in repetition. And her hair being loose through her off. And the Whitney Cummings was talking about how she had done a similar thing when she was filming her HBO special and left her hair down. And normally she keeps it back and she had, you know, lip gloss and her hair kept getting stuck in the lip gloss and it threw her. She's like, it's not that it was a bad set. It's that it wasn't the best set that it could be. And it's recognizing what are those things that are comfortable for us? What are those things that ground us? What are those things that illustrate the story so that we can tell the story better, so that we're not in our head, that we are connected with our body and subsequently connected with our audience? Because ultimately it's. About the audience and how do the distractions yeah. How do we give ourselves the best chance to connect with our audience, and that is to be out of our head. So I was fascinated by watching this interview at how much I related to it. Like, I have my pretalk routine that I have to do. There's the long version of it there's been nice to have, right? Like, I like it when I can walk through a venue and I can touch things. I like when I can meet with the audience prior to it and do a little bit of pre audience analysis. But my must have I have to have my five minutes backstage. I have to do my breathing exercises, I have to get my glass of water in before I go on stage. I absolutely, positively have to do my visualizations. If I don't do those things, I feel off each time. So it's finding those things that are going to serve you so that you can serve your audience.
And a lot of people would call those rituals, but they're not are they about setting yourself up for what's to come?
Yeah. And there is a form of ritual to it in that it's repeatable. So whether it's rich, do you call it ritual or whether you call it ritual?
Oh, come on. You know, I've spoken to Brad.
Yeah, yes, I do. But he had a point.
But he does have a point, and he's made a very good point of using that terminology to serve people. And that's the point, isn't it? And it's clearly it serves you by doing things in a certain way and getting prepared. And just sort of going back to your point about the movement of things and an audio and the way that you can feel that. I can categorically tell you that after 2 million or something telephone calls, that if you're having a bad day and they say, Smile when you dial, and it does help, and it helps your posture and everything, right? But if you're having a terrible day, don't do it because people can hear that still, even when you've just made that extra effort gosh, yeah. Body language. Because that hearing tall that we have is so finely tuned when it's the only thing we have.
Especially when it's the only thing we have. You know, you look at anybody who has any form of sensory deprivation, and then you have those heightened senses when you can only rely on the audio. It's amazing the cues that you can pick up on. And as you said, our brain is finely tuned to it. You know when somebody is smiling on the phone, you know when they're having a bad day. And it goes the other way, too. I've talked to people about this with energy work. We know when there's been a fight in a room, even if we've never witnessed the fight, you've walked into that room and people were like and then you get that link. You're like, oh, what is with that? And you're like and you become hyper sensitive and aware of you're walking on eggshells a little bit, because what did I just walk into? You didn't witness a fight. There was nothing you didn't see. You don't know. But you know that something went on. And we as human beings have a far better connection with each other than I think we give ourselves credit for.
It's that invisible signature, isn't it, that is left behind, which is quite something.
Well, and not only that's left behind, but that leads in front, right? Like, I have a magnetic field that travels around me, and that's leading my actions, and it's being left behind. And we literally do humans are basically big batteries. We have electromagnetic pulses running through us. That's how our body actually stays alive. When those electrical pulses stop, so does everything else, because the electrical pulses are what runs your brain in your heart. So when the electricity in your body stops, when your battery gets drained, that's when the body stops working. And anybody who's done any kind of 10th grade physics knows that if you run an electrical current through something, there is an electromagnetic wave that comes from that. That's how half of modern science measures. The body is through EKGs and your Cat scans and all the rest of it. All they're looking at is electrical pulses through your various organs. And if you have this electrical field around you, it's just a magnetic field, but like anything, you have electrons then that are moving through the air in front of you, and you have electrons that are moving through the air behind you. And you are literally affecting your environment beyond your actual physicality. And what you do with that and the energy that you're putting out, because you're literally putting out energy, is what is going to be felt. And so you got to remember, you are leading with energy just as much as you're leaving energy behind.
That's deep. And it warrants part two.
Let's do part two. Wendy.
Let's do part two. And it also leads me into let's keep these listeners awake as well. Let's fire back up those neurons.
Let's get those synapses firing, folks. Come on. Let's make this conversation count.
I want to know the conversation that counted for you, Tyler.
I've had so many, but when you said it, the first one that popped to mind was the conversation I had with my doctor, mentor and father figure growing up, Dr. Bob Corbett. I had a medical incident when I was 17 that left the left side of my body paralyzed. And I distinctly remember about a month and a half afterwards being in his office crying because my face didn't work, my body didn't work. My acting career was over, and being so frustrated with Western medicine. Here we are in the 21st century, and they can't diagnose what happened to me. Was it a stroke? Was it a bell's policy? Was it a mini stroke? Why did somebody say I had oh... I can't even remember. It just seemed so bizarre and it didn't even sound like a thing that could happen. A full body. I don't even remember. Anyway. Nobody could tell me what it was. And Bob sat me down. He said, Think of the blessing that is. I said, how is not knowing what the hell happened to me a blessing, sir? And he went, if you had a diagnosis, there would be one course of treatment which may or may not work. You had a stroke. There's nothing we can do. But we don't know what you had. So now we have the freedom to try anything. And if you can try, anything could work. In fact, everything could work. So let's start trying things and see what works. And then he quoted Edison. Edison didn't find a thousand ways not to make a light bulb right until he found the one that did. Bob has been a steady oarsman for me in my life, and what I appreciate the most about him, he really is an oarsman. He allows me to captain my ship. What's the course that we want to set, Captain? But he will be steady at the hand. If I tell him where due west. He will say, Very well, due west. He'll look at me and he says, you understand that looks like it could very possibly be bad weather. I'll say, yes. He goes, okay, let's weather this storm, then. We'll batten down the hatches. And I will keep this boat due west. And I have always been in great admiration of him and I've tried to pattern and emulate him as best I can in that he was one of the first people to teach me to like, I don't believe in finding the positive in life.
Is that if it's just never big enough?
It's not even that. What it is, is that my father passed away at six. I don't think that was a positive. I'm not going to be like, hey, dad died. Good for that. No, there's not a positive. But what I do look for is the grace in situations. There is grace in everything. My father passing away created an opportunity for me to have multiple father figures in my life, at least ten, Bob being one of them. My medical incident gave me a chance to reframe and refocus what was important to me. Really crystallize friendships, because I had incredible friend support when that happened. And in high school, that's rare too, right? I was a freak. I had a face that didn't work. The worst that my friends did was they'd make me laugh because I made this sound because I couldn't close my mouth. And it was comical. I don't blame them. It was irritating sometimes, but that was the worst that I got. How dare my friends try to make me laugh in a time of great tragedy for me.
That's what friends do.
That is what friends do. I have always looked for the grace and a lot of that came from the lessons that I learned from Bob and continually learned from Bob. He's struggling currently medically, and I'm watching what he's going through and again, how he's handling it with grace because it's got to be so frustrating for him and to witness his partial acceptance, but also pushing of experimentation, like, what is the solution? I think that's the thing that I like the most about him too. And one of the things that I learned is there's a problem? What is the solution and how can I be proactive with it? And that first conversation, 17 years old in his office, isn't this a gift? And having him look at now you have multiple solutions instead of one has influenced me for the rest of my life.
What did work?
I don't know which one. It was the kitchen sink. It was the kitchen sink that did it.
Bob is a doctor of chiropractic. His wife Joanne is a doctor of chiropractic who is a holistic practitioner. She's also an acupuncturist. So like with Jo, I was doing laser acupuncture, chiropractic and Eastern herbs and medicines. With Bob. I was doing chiropractic. They recommended me to an incredible physiotherapist. So I was doing physio. I was also taking modern medications to encourage synaptic regrowth and get neurons firing again, I did so much, and for a year I was scanned, prodded, poked and all kinds of weird stuff. And I don't know what worked, but it all kind of blended together. And did my face works now? My body works now.
You've got quite a fine face, I have to say.
Why, thank you, Wendy.
When you revealed how old you were, I was like, what?
I drink a lot of water and I moisturize. And I have a six year old daughter who keeps me spry and youthful. And I play hockey three times a week as a goaltender, so I'm never off the ice. So I get in my physical workouts and it keeps my mind sharp, I think. I hope.
But they do say, don't they, that your physical health has a really big impact on everything else. So clearly it's working for you. Well, I'm just glad for Dr. Bob and it's just so heartwarming that you're still in touch with him all these years later. I don't know anybody that has got a doctor that stuck around that long.
Well, it's funny because, again, I've been in touch with a lot of these gentlemen who helped guide me in my early years. Not as often as I'd like to, but I still talked to my physician, Dr. Spackman. I played in a band with his son for a couple of years, Dr. Bob and I.. I took him when I was made master of my lodge. Bob, he was the first person I reached out to and asked him to be at the ceremony. He influenced my life so much that not only do I feel the need to pay it forward, because a lot of the lessons that I teach from stage are things that I've learned from him, but I also feel an obligation to pay back. Like, I wouldn't have the life that I have. He was the first one to introduce me to self development. He bought me a ticket to Dr. John Demartini's breakthrough experience, and I didn't understand how profound that would be until later. And I didn't fully appreciate what kind of a gift that was until later in life. But that's the kind of man that he was. He was like, this is the thing I'm going to invest in you. This is a thing that was important for me, that I think will be important for you, and that's put me on a path. Right. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to speak on Tony Robin stage in Dallas if it were not for that seed that was planted over 20 years ago. And we never know.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Trained public speaker here.
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TL;dr - want the episode summarised in one paragraph, and in your own language? Here is it.
ENGLISH: “One of the key concepts we teach is creating your customer avatar. ICP. Unfortunately, if you’re starting a small business, you don’t do this because you think about everything else. But you don’t start at the basic. You don’t start at the letter A.”
"أحد المفاهيم الأساسية التي نعلمها هو إنشاء الصورة الرمزية لعميلك. برنامج المقارنات الدولية. لسوء الحظ ، إذا كنت تبدأ نشاطًا تجاريًا صغيرًا ، فلن تفعل ذلك لأنك تفكر في كل شيء آخر. لكنك لا تبدأ من الأساسي. لا تبدأ بالحرف أ. "
SPANISH: ““Uno de los conceptos clave que enseñamos es crear su avatar de cliente. ICP.
Desafortunadamente, si está iniciando una pequeña empresa, no hace esto porque piensa en todo lo demás.
Pero no comienza en lo básico. No empiezas con la letra A”.
FRENCH: “L’un des concepts clés que nous enseignons est la création de votre avatar client. ICP. Malheureusement, si vous démarrez une petite entreprise, vous ne le faites pas parce que vous pensez à tout le reste. Mais vous ne commencez pas à la base. Vous ne commencez pas par la lettre A..“
GERMAN: „Eines der Schlüsselkonzepte, die wir lehren, ist das Erstellen Ihres Kunden-Avatars. ICP. Wenn Sie ein kleines Unternehmen gründen, tun Sie dies leider nicht, weil Sie an alles andere denken. Aber Sie fangen nicht bei den Grundlagen an. Du fängst nicht beim Buchstaben A an.“
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