Businesses will always fail if they don’t follow the eight unbreakable rules!
Do you play the business rules game when you’re running your operations? Wendy Harris has chatted with a lot of business leaders on this podcast, but few of them have talked about the rules in business that govern success!
Thankfully, Sean Castrina is here to talk us through them!
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Here’s the episode page!
You’ll hear:
- Business is solving a problem
- Being too afraid to sell
- Leading from the front
- Play the game first and enjoy the rewards later
- Sean’s conversation that counted
Wendy
So I know that you have got several books under your belt and you're also a podcast host of Ten Minute Entrepreneur. I don't know how you can get anything covered in ten minutes personally, but I'm sure you must for the amount of episodes.
Sean
Yeah, I have a system about it. Yes.
Wendy
And I know that your latest book is The Eight Unbreakable Rules for Business Startup Success. Now, as a girl, that's not very hard and fast on rules. I do believe in boundaries. I do think that we do need to have a framework in place. Out of those eight, which is the one that we must never break.
Sean
I'd say nearly all of them. For example, if you start with a bad idea that's not vetted, it doesn't matter if you do the other seven.
Wendy
It's still a bad idea.
Sean
A bad idea is a bad idea. I always say, like, I love partnerships in business, but a partnership with a bad idea is still a bad idea and a great idea with a bad partner still a bad idea. That's why they're unbreakable, because I think at least six of them you probably would be in trouble if you mess up with them.
Wendy
So in terms of what your mission is now for business startups, clearly what you've learned over the last couple of decades has led you to want to share the insights that you've had. What would you say brought about that mission to share what you know?
Sean
I just realized that failure is best heard through a secondhand story and a heck of a lot cheaper. So if you can just example, if you're getting ready to go down a walking path and there's a fork in it and a person in front of you goes, hey, you don't want to go down that path because there's a tree down already, so you go this way. Well, that's probably very helpful to know. Didn't take that person a long time to share that little bit of information, but it probably maybe saved you a few hours or whatever the case may be. So to me I'm cognitive of things that worked. I'm cognitive of things that didn't work. So being able to share and or pull that information out from other entrepreneurs to me just make good sense.
Wendy
Yes. Would you agree that we all have these great ideas? Okay, so it might be bad, always bad people, whatever. We've established that. But when you do settle on a great idea, one of the biggest challenges I think the entrepreneurs have is not necessarily the idea, it's the deliverable in the idea and the processes and the other people that they may need to get on board to help them deliver that because running a business is not simply, here's my thing, here's my idea. Buy it.
Sean
Yeah. No, there's three parts of every business and if you fail in any one of the three, you're going to be out of business. And one of them you just mentioned, which is the fulfillment part. You have to deliver, produce whatever it is you're selling. And your ability to do that will dictate whether you stay in business. So that's why there's one of the eight unbreakable rules is your business plan, what is it going to take to attract customers, sell the customers and then provide what it is you have agreed to? And then what is the service end on the back end? Is there a warranty, customer service, et cetera? You got to cover all of it. Thing is just that's great and that's important, but that just gets the ball rolling. Now we got to play the game.
Wendy
I know that you're quite hands on with entrepreneurs. What type of products and services are you seeing entrepreneurs looking to make their living from? Are you seeing trends?
Sean
Well, I mean, obviously software is like popular only because if you create it once, you can make money forever. It sounds good, but my brain doesn't get around that. So it's a moot point. You can make money. It's really simple. I mean, all you have to do is have something that somebody wants, needs, solves a problem or entertains them. I mean, there's your four biggest areas. I mean, the business, you know, if it's something somebody needs toilet paper, paper towels, gasoline, okay, you're winning. That's a good thing. If it's something somebody wants, that's the next level. That's a rolex. Watch that's, a Lexus. I desire that. Sandals, Vacation, Walt Disney World, something like that. It's the next level. So then you have a wand, then you have it solves a problem. That can be pharmaceuticals. That could be anything that just helps you sleep better. Black pain. You can go all the way down the line. Just solves a problem allows you to do something that you struggle with or you haven't been able to do. And that can be service companies from repairing your car to cleaning the gutters. So you have that solves a problem and then you have entertainment. We see that obviously with YouTube and social media and all that. If you can attract eyeballs, you have a mechanism to charge for marketing. Because if you can get eyeballs, then there's people that will pay for those eyeballs. So generally they're the four areas in its most simplest form that good ideas tend to stem from.
Wendy
Yeah. No, I agree. It's that sort of education and an entertainment blend, isn't it, that helps propel.
Sean
Yeah, I mean, definitely from the social media standpoint of it. But I think basic businesses work in the most basic form. Things break in people's houses every day. Things break on cars every day. Robots, AI, and software cannot fix any of those. Amazon cannot fix any of those things. So I personally like businesses that doesn't compete with artificial intelligence software and or Amazon because to me, there's always the next best thing. There's always something where something was really good five years ago, and it doesn't exist today because there's a better mousetrap, because it's such a big market, there's so many people competing in that that want to create that great mouse trap. It's all what you feel comfortable doing, but it's like winning the lottery sometimes with those type of businesses. Like one person, yeah, did great, but where's all the other ones that fizzled out or didn't quite make it and put a ton of money trying to do it.
Wendy
There's also the amount of time that it takes for you to then measure and say, hey, this is a success, because we see on social all these overnight success stories, hey, I had this idea last weekend and now I'm a six figure business.
Sean
Yeah. And I think it's all bull to be frank. I've worked with a lot of people online that have done well, and they may have made it in a weekend. They typically blow it in a month and then they can't figure out what they did that work in the first place.
Wendy
Yes. It's building that sustainability in business, isn't it? That's got longevity.
Sean
Absolutely. What you're selling is somebody going to want it ten years from now? You can't guarantee that, but you have to think and then if at any point you don't think somebody might be interested in either buying it the way you're currently selling it in America, that would be like retail stores like Sears and JC Penney that are no longer around. Okay, so people wanted to buy what you had, but your mechanism of selling it no longer became the most ideal online, etcetera. Became better. So you always have to be looking into the future and saying, is what it is, I'm selling going to still be wanted and needed. Number two, is the way that I'm selling it still going to be the most preferred method. And this would be like a Blockbuster Video as opposed to Netflix.
Wendy
No, but things come in and out of fashion, don't they? You know, even stores are seeing a revival because they want.. people are missing the experience. We've gone, you know, a period of two or three years of not really wanting to go into store and see people or try things on or see how it fits for size. And now there's this we're seeing certainly in the UK, there's this football of people wanting to go out and touch it and see what it's like in real life.
Sean
I think we yeah… I agree with you. And it's funny because I went to arts and crafts festival with my wife yesterday. Not my thing, but it was like, honey, if you want to do it, that's fine. So we go and you can see the energy and people just being outside and being able to touch products and all that. So I absolutely agree with you. And I think if shopping centers and stores create a great experience that goes back to entertainment. Shopping can be entertainment. If you create a great experience, a great store, and people like that, you've solved the want and you've tied it to entertainment. So yeah, I definitely think stores can work in the right location with the right products and the right experience.
Wendy
In your own experience, Sean, with your own business, where you're helping your customers, where do you find that you need to be hanging out yourself? What has that journey been like?
Sean
Home services is where I've made the biggest chunk of my money and now digital marketing. But in both of them, they're service companies. We physically get in front of people that buy from us. So that personal interaction, providing the hands on buying experience. Customers like to ask questions and they don't like to do it in a chat window. We know that somebody's just feeding us answers that are already prerecorded and we never quite get what they want. If you've ever called customer service and spoken with a human being that speaks like you do and can answer the question, we know the value of that. That will supersede any level of technology. So if you can provide that, that is still the preferred experience that I believe customers want. Can somebody help me make this process easier? Help me understand it, tell me how to use this better, tell me how to assemble it. Whatever the case may be, there's always going to be a demand for that level of service.
Wendy
I was having a conversation with quite a big company only last week and we got into what your sales cycle looks like and feels like, how is it driven? And a lot of it was very digitally led with inbound inquiries, which is great if you've got an absolute feast of those, but a lot of them handled digitally once they've been received. And my question to them really was, well, where's the human element that is going to take, you know, 20% up to 40?
Sean
I would be curious how many leads they lose as soon as people realize it's going to be a completely digital interaction. I would love to know that number. I'd love to beta test that against a human being interacting and seeing the sale ratio because the only problem with theirs is they've got to have a million interactions to sell a certain amount where they may be able to only have to have 10,000 interactions to sell an equal amount. If a human being is somewhere involved in that process.
Wendy
The question is sort of deepened in as much as the reason that they were going that route was to not want to scare off a prospect or a customer too soon to feel too heavy handed by giving them a call or being able to offer a video chat. And I just sort of challenged them and said, well, I think that just kind of depends how you introduce yourself.
Sean
Absolutely. You can bridge that gap. I don't know necessarily their product line, how I do it, but human beings are happy. There's a difference between being sold and providing information. Yeah. If somebody jumps on and they're heavy handed with the selling part of it, well, yeah, that might be a turn off. But if somebody is involved in it and trying to provide help, that's dramatically different.
Wendy
Absolutely. As much as selling is a term, the further we get away from using that term in business, I think the better we do in delivering our business services to people.
Sean
I mean, selling is providing enough information to give somebody what they need to make a choice on whether to buy your services. That's all you're doing is you're just constantly trying to clarify, communicate value, you know, give them some certainty, confidence. That's all you're doing. In the selling process. It's just kind of knocking down those walls that are preventing them from buying.
Wendy
Do you see a single common mistake that entrepreneurs make when it comes to that part of their business cycle? Sean.
Sean
I think in selling. I think too many entrepreneurs are afraid to sell. I feel like they feel like once they start their business, they try to get themselves out of the selling part of it as fast as possible. That's the dirty part of the business. And I generally find that they pull themselves out way too early in the start up phase. And typically 1 million and under. Whoever started the business generally is the best salesperson. Or should be. They know the product better than anybody or why they started the business. They have the best startup story. They have the best understanding of end or the product or the service and they want to pull themselves from it and bring in a relative or a friend to take that over because it's an inexpensive hire. And that's a very costly mistake. Selling as an entrepreneur, you're probably going to be heavily involved in it. Up to $10 million.
Wendy
Yeah. There's got to be a rule book and a playbook, I think, that you need to formulate from the founder out into whoever it is that you become your trusted team members.
Sean
Yes. And you can train people to take your place and being in sales, but I see too many owners that kind of start hiding themselves in the back. They're on the computer. They're doing busy work and stuff like that, but they're not doing stuff that moves the needle anymore. And I think that selling is what moves the needle. That 1st 10 million. It's sell, sell, sell. You know, you got to create that demand, fulfill the demand. And anything that doesn't sell and or fulfill is probably a waste of your time.
Wendy
What would you say to anybody that's listening, that's out back, reliant on somebody else moving the needle, knowing that the needle isn't moving. What would you say to them? They're listening now.
Sean
Yeah. Your Company is going to be dictated by your energy, your involvement. If they feel like you've taken your eye off the ball or you've gotten lazy, you're never going to keep a high level employee. Like, superstars aren't going to stick around to work for somebody like that. They're either going to duplicate what it is you have and start their own business, or they're going to go work for your competitor. Because if they feel like they're doing everything and they're the brains behind the operation, the energy behind the operation, whatever that may be, that's not the position you want to be in as a business owner. So they need to know that they're working for somebody with, golly, at least equal ambition.
Wendy
Yeah, it's definitely that energy, isn't it? That once you see that SAP, it SAPS from all areas of the business, doesn't it?
Sean
You need to have that energy going forward. There may be a time where you pull out you don't need as much, but when you look at Elon Musk and you look at Richard Branson and you look at you can go all the way down the line, you know, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and just go every one of them were their best pitchmen.
Wendy
They believed in the end, in mind before it was even created, didn't they?
Sean
Yeah. But even at their greatest level of wealth, they're still fanatics about what it is they were selling.
Wendy
That's a really interesting point that you make there. Really? Shaun as well, that a lot of entrepreneurs come in it for the money, and they come in it for the lifestyle that they believe that it's going to lead them to. Yet the true entrepreneurs, the money, it's a byproduct, isn't it?
Sean
We play to win the game. If you win the game, the celebration and the awards come. But it's liking the process of training for an athletic event and loving to compete. You like that more. It's like, okay, you win, that's great. That's only a short period of celebration, and then you rinse, repeat and get back on the training. So, yeah, you have to love the process of entrepreneurship. You got to love the process of finding an idea, being able to turn it into an operating business, recruit the team, rinse, repeat, scale, find another one. Anybody who's watched Shark Tank understands the idea. That why is it that people that are so well off or willing to buy a company and start the process over again? Because they're, like addicts and entrepreneurs are always looking for another product or service that people need, want, entertains or solves a problem, and when they find something that has a nice market demand for it and good margins, profit wise, they're all in again.
Wendy
It's a good addiction to have, I think.
Sean
Oh, absolutely. To hold on to one.. you start one business and you hold onto it. Like when you're holding a steering wheel on ice. When you're driving on ice, and it's the only thing you have going. That's not a great place to be, I think, even if you have one business, which is fine, but every year you need to be looking for additional profit streams. You need to fortify that business. You need to build a moat around that business like a castle.
Wendy
Yeah. It's being able to stay current and relevant, isn't it, to the marketplace?
Sean
What your industry is going to do, where's the direction is your industry going, what are your customers demanding wanting? Yeah, you have to try to be five years down the road.
Wendy
And that doesn't necessarily mean that the product itself changes. It's just how you talk about it.
Sean
Amazon is basically doing exactly what they did ten years ago. The only thing they've done a little bit better is they get it out there faster. But that's the thing, they speed it up the most, is the ability to get you the product, but nothing has that I'm aware of. I could almost buy anything ten years ago. I can pretty much buy anything now. The only difference now is making the buying, trying on clothing. Now you can try it for a week before you necessarily get charged on it because… that's smart, that didn't alter their profit stream and they were doing free returns anyway, so they just kind of took the buying process and added a little bit. But they own Zappos and Zappos does a 365 day return policy, so they already had the process of returns built into the cake anyway, so they just repackaged something they were already doing and delaying the money seven days. Like they can't afford that. I mean, that's like a joke. But the business model is 99% the same.
Wendy
Yeah. I think if I look back, because I'm a longtime Amazon customer, ten years ago, you could pretty much buy anything. Now you just have more pages to scroll through. So this just way more choice. So it's perhaps brought the price point of what it is that you're looking for down it's, made it a little bit more competitive, but you want to pay the best price for the best product. That's what consumers are always looking for, isn't it?
Sean
Yeah. And they just make it as easy as possible. I mean, they've made the buying process. Nobody has made buying easier than Amazon, in my opinion. I literally can stand in line at a regular store, get frustrated for like five minutes because it's too long of a line, go on my phone, order from Amazon and know it will be tomorrow. Yeah, I've done that more times than I care to admit.
Wendy
It's sadly so have I and I really like to support local businesses. So, yeah, if you've got a long queue in your store, you're going to have to bring those queues down. That's the only way you're going to compete with Amazon and not moan about it.
Wendy
Sean so in terms of, you know, making conversations count, clearly you do that with a lot of people and help them get clarity on where they should be making their conversations count in business. But I think it's time for me to be asking you about the one conversation that maybe changed everything for you personally.
Sean
Yeah. When I lost my dream job, I was in graduate school. I was recently married, my wife was pregnant. And you never want to hear these words unless you're driving a car. Sean, we're going in a different direction. It was a complete leadership change. It ended up working out well. But I'd never had like, the entrepreneurial idea to start a business before that. I had the idea of multiple incomes based on my skill set. So, yeah, I may have worked through things on Saturdays in the evenings and make sure I'm getting paid well for those. But the idea of having a business never crossed my mind prior to that. So when I heard that, I was like, okay, I'm never going to work for anybody again long term. I may do something in the interim as I get my feet on the ground, but I'm definitely going to own my own vessel. I would say if I see an iceberg like the Titanic, I want to at least know I can try to turn the wheel a little bit. When I heard those words, we're going in a different direction, I had zero control over anything.
Wendy
What you learned from that now, Sean, does that necessarily mean that you control everything? Because it's a loaded question!
Sean
You can't control everything, but as an entrepreneur, you at least can. Example in 2008 when the economy took a turn. If you're the owner of the company, you at least can try to do some pivots. You're not completely waiting to see if you're going to be laid off or not. You can see the level of demand for your product. You at least can make some degree of pivot.
Wendy
It's less of a shock, isn't it?
Sean
Absolutely. And you feel like you have a touch of control and that's either good or bad. Some people don't do really well with having to make big decisions fast and so some people, that's overwhelming for them. Other entrepreneurs make decisions very fast and generally 80% of them are good enough to where they can adjust it on the fly, but they get out of the hot water quick.
Wendy
Yes. I would agree that it's good to have an idea of where things are going and to have that ability to shift a gear up or down if you need to.
Sean
Exactly. I just don't want to be completely dependent on other people to put this to, A, identify that there's a problem because some people identify it way too late. Number two, create the strategy. I'd like to at least see the strategy and have an opinion on it. So I think I want to be somewhere involved in that process of identifying there's a problem, B, understanding we need a strategy, C, when are we going to sport taking action? Which should be immediately. Yeah. We tend to have a problem in any of those. A lot of entrepreneurs have a problem with that. They don't identify a problem. They not good at putting together strategies, and then they delay on the implementation. Well, missing any of those three is going to be a major problem. It's going to cause some problems here.
Wendy
And I think, in part, that's because we're looking for control. But then the way to get those things into place is about giving back control to somebody else, isn't it?
Sean
Simply put, one person is not going to build anything of any greatness, so you're going to have to have a team. I mean, the great companies have thousands of employees, thousands and thousands of employees. So you're never going to be able to do it by yourself.
Wendy
No, that's true. And did you ever look back, Sean, at the company that said to you, we're going in a different direction, to see where they actually ended up?
Sean
Yeah. They never quite did as well as you would have thought. Never quite worked out for the leader who took over. That's fine. I'm more than happy with the way my situation worked itself out. I like entrepreneurship, and I'm fascinated by it.
Wendy
And clearly it suits you well, Sean.
Sean
I like to think so.
Wendy
They're lost your gain, I would say.
Sean
The whole thing is, what is it if a door closes, a window open. So there's always that level of you got to take opportunities, good or bad, and you just got to make them work for you.
Wendy
Yeah. And what's the other saying about failure? You need lots and lots of failures, but nobody ever fails.
Sean
Yeah. I mean, failure is just a speed bump, as we have in America. I don't know if they're over there, over Australia or whatever, but it just slows you down. It's not a stop sign. It just kind of makes you go, okay, wait, what? I currently say failure just provides you enough information to tell you what doesn't work.
Wendy
Yeah.
Sean
I mean, that's all it is. I mean, something fails, okay, something did not work. Why did it not work? And what do I have to do different going forward? That's all failure is.
Wendy
Yeah. It gives you the opportunity to choose different direction.
Sean
Absolutely.
Wendy
Boom. Boom.
Sean
Yeah. I've had enough of it. I'm immune to it at this point.
Wendy
Yeah. Well, Sean, it's been fascinating chatting with you about all things entrepreneurship, and I always encourage listeners to reach out if they've got any more questions with guests. So where's the best place for them to find you hanging out?
Sean
If you want to ask me a question, it would be on Instagram. That would be the best way, Sean.Castrina I'm verified and easy to find. If you like the free book at Unbreakable Rules for business startup success. If you go to my website, seancastrina.com, you can download that for free and we don't try to sell you anything, so it's a true gift. We encourage you to do that. And the Ten Minute Entrepreneur Podcast is a quick podcast if you want to learn things about entrepreneurship.
Wendy
Fantastic, Sean. I'm pretty sure that there'll be quite a few scurrying over to have a listen.
Sean
Great. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.
Wendy
It's been great. Thank you.
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