INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Making Conversations Count – Episode Seven

3rd December 2020

Wendy Harris & Buckso Dhillon-Wooley

Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:01: Your higher self

00:02:20: The lockdown – a blessing
00:04:29: The importance of conversation to Buckso
00:05:13: Exposing your vulnerability
00:06:43: Irrelevant conversation
00:07:34: Being Buckso
00:10:58: Surrounding yourself with the right people
00:13:18: The background to Buckso’s pivotal moment
00:16:43: The diamond within
00:18:50: First wave immigrants
00:21:58: The influence of your parents
00:25:05: Final thoughts

Wendy Harris: Welcome to Making Conversations Count, the podcast that introduces you to business leaders who share their pivotal moment with you, aspiring entrepreneurs.  These pivotal moments really can create turning points in your life and career and today, I have Buckso Dhillon-Wooley, an actor, a speaker, a coach to your higher self.  I’ve known Buckso for a while; please introduce yourself Buckso?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: I connect with your higher self and our coaching sessions go via that avenue.  There are a whole myriad of other things that I bring to the table as well, a little bit like the magician of the tarot card; they have a veritable banquet of tools that they use in their trade, and I too do that.  I never limit myself by saying one thing that I do for people; it’s a myriad of things; it’s a holistic approach.

Wendy Harris: I think that perfectly sums you up, because not everybody needs one thing to help them?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Nobody needs that one thing; it’s always a myriad of things.  If only people realised that a bit more and were more open to that fact, that it isn’t one thing that needs to be fixed in our life, it’s a combination of things.

Wendy Harris: And I think sometimes, because you do think about it, it’s not an alignment to other things that are going on, that what you think is the problem isn’t always the root problem either?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Correct, and that’s where you find that you continually come across obstacles.  And, it’s just not getting it right, “And I’ve followed this and I know it’s that and I know it’s that and I’m just not getting it right”; it’s because it’s not that thing that you think it is and a requirement to be more open and allow less control and more of a sort of natural flow to occur by being more open to opportunity.

Wendy Harris: And being able to listen to what other people can hear is going on that you can’t necessarily translate?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: And your higher self, in fact.  We’ve all got one, whether we believe it or not doesn’t mean it’s not happening.  There is a higher aspect to us that is without any sort of judgement; that doesn’t have ego; that has none of the things that we have as human beings in this 3D world that we live in.  It’s a part of us that is totally devoid of anything.  It’s very impartial and we really do need to connect with that aspect of ourselves, but we don’t allow ourselves because there’s too much going on.  We busy ourselves with stuff to create more problems and we don’t need to. 

And I’ll tell you now; this lockdown has been a blessing for me to find more of that in myself, to be able to clear the debris that’s the flotsam and jetsam that’s come across from living as a human being in life generally.  So, it’s been a great time for me to be able to really clear out that debris; that stuff that no longer serves.

Wendy Harris: I tend to agree.  It’s been a blessing in disguise for me as well.  What it’s actually done is given me back time to be able to clear my head and think about where I want to be, what I want to do, and to appreciate the priorities that perhaps aren’t a priority, or haven’t been.  You say that they are, but do you really treat them as such?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: And, I was speaking to a friend today about a scenario that she picked up on with one of her clients that was having a bit of a tough time at home.  And I said to her, as a thought, I said, “If you’d have been living in your normal life, doing your job like you’re doing now, would you have had the luxury of time to be able to connect with that person, pick up on that?” and she said, “Probably not”.  And this is the thing.

We are so much more able to be more in tune with what’s going on in our lives so, guys, you really have to make the most of this time, because this is the time where you really get to tune in with that; those assets of your life which never see the light of day, which will always be on the dark side of the moon.

Wendy Harris: It’s like most things though, isn’t it; we need light and dark for things to stay in balance?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Always.  You have to, and people don’t want to work with their shadow self because, “It’s horrible down there”, or, “It’s unknown; I don’t know what that involves”, and it’s not always bad.

Wendy Harris: No.  I think the fear is that that bad will take over.  It’s like anything; it’s in equal parts and you think that, well, if I’ve got to stay in the light and keep that in the dark, then that’s never going to surface.  But in actual fact, by actually seeing and recognising that dark, you can take its power away, can’t you, and it can still be dark?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Correct.  At the end of the day, it doesn’t control you.  And you have to have that balance of light and shade.  Wherever you cast a light, there is no shade.  So, once you do that in that aspect and area of your life, it removes the very thing that you fear, you know, straightaway with the fact that you’ve shone a spotlight onto it.  “Oh, it doesn’t seem as bad; it doesn’t seem as bad as I thought it was”.

Wendy Harris: And, that’s all through conversation, isn’t it? 

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Absolutely.

Wendy Harris: It’s all through sharing, fears, emotions, thoughts, logic.  It’s breaking down all the barriers by using conversation and techniques.  How important is that for you with what you do in your role, Buckso?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: I would rather have no clients at all than have people coming in front of me and not speaking their truth, and not showing their vulnerability.  There is no point in me and you exchanging time, that valuable thing that we can never get back.  There’s no point in us doing that if you aren’t going to make that promise to yourself to show every aspect the dark aspect, the hidden aspects, without any shame. 

There’s no shame to it, or guilt; it’s about the vulnerability.  If you cannot be vulnerable in a conversation that you’re having, do not expect the desired results.

Wendy Harris: Do you think that that’s, in part, because the way that society judges, that people keep those things back?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Primarily, it starts because of how they’ve been brought up.  Primarily, it starts because of the conversations we’ve been exposed to as kids, and who we’ve come to spend our time with; and, how much of that time we spend with those individuals will make a bigger impact than what we think about that thing which exposes us. 

What do we think about vulnerability?  Well, the environment you’re brought up in, if it’s not been encouraged or seen to practise yourself by example, you know, nobody’s led by example for you to be able to do that, you’re not going to do it.  So, it always starts at home, and it’s further compounded by the friends you keep. 

And, Dan Peña, he always talks about, “Show me your friends, I’ll show you your future”, and that’s what it is.  People are scared to show their vulnerability because of what they’re exposed to, more often than not.  You’re quite right; it is judgement, but it’s not —

Wendy Harris: Yes, in a different form.  I’m guessing that that bridge between the vulnerability and the judgement is the fact that you have a consciousness that is trying to connect why that happened and why this is happening, and whether it’s right or wrong?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: There’s too much of that going on.  When you think about it, 98% of what you do and think is done through the subconscious anyway.  So, we spend too much time that doesn’t actually garner any rewards; it’s irrelevant.

Wendy Harris: I do see a lot of energy wasted in irrelevant conversation; I see that in the workplace as well.  Yes, I do believe that there is a place for small talk, and I mean that in the nicest possible sense in terms of icebreaking and generally getting a feel and a flavour for a character or a personality, and this sort of thing.  But, by goodness, when it’s used to actually get out of doing what they should be doing, it’s so frustrating.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yeah, because it’s easy, isn’t?  It’s easy, it doesn’t upset the apple cart, it maintains the equilibrium, they can function in that space and they know how this works if they do this this way.  And, they will continue to do that because of fear.  But, it’s always in place a fear for any of us, why we don’t do something; it’s fear, it’s fear of it and what it will bring about.

Wendy Harris: Now, Buckso, when we first met, through the Love Ladies Networking Group, wasn’t it, in Derby, that was one thing that I noticed about you, was that you are not shy at coming forward.  There was no fear in you going up to somebody and just being totally you.  And, a lot of people that go networking are not necessarily themselves.  They go with worry, they go with fear, they’re anxious.  What came about for you to be able to just be so Buckso?!

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Do you know what, because it isn’t something I turn on and off, it’s just that’s it; that’s the steady baseline that I operate at.  I just turn it up in public a little bit, like you would on stage.  I am fundamentally who I am all the time, unless I’m really having a bad time of it and I’m in a bit of a dark place, which I visit now and again myself, because I’m human.  And, you know, anybody who says they don’t has reached the height of enlightenment and should actually be sainted.

But, for me, it’s like one of those situations where I can go into any place and be myself.  Don’t get me wrong; if I went into a place where I thought people were in there that were of a higher academic status, different kettle of fish, because they’re all going to be talking in a way and behaving in a way that actually isn’t befitting for me.  So, I wouldn’t necessarily turn it up in there; I’d turn it down.

So, if you’d seen me in another environment that wasn’t my chosen environment, you would have seen a different Buckso.

Wendy Harris: That’s interesting that you would share that, because I think that’s pretty similar to how I am.  I would class that as a WYSIWYG; what you see is what you get.  No matter what the environment is, you kind of mirror that environment so that it’s pertinent.  But, there’s one thing that I learnt a few years ago and that is that really, it doesn’t matter.  The harder you try to fit, the harder it will be to fit.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: So, how do you sustain it?

Wendy Harris: You can’t.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: How do you sustain that? 

Wendy Harris: You really can’t.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: That’s how burnout kicks in; that’s where imposter syndrome kicks in, because you shouldn’t have started out like that in the first place.

Wendy Harris: Yes.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: You started out up here; it’s not sustainable.  And, for me, how you described how I was at the meetings and stuff, for a lot of people that is off-putting as well.  And I remember somebody telling me, from the networking group, that they suggested me to somebody to help them with their business, and right down my street regarding videos and lives and things like that.  And they were a bit, “Oh, I don’t know.  I’m not sure about Buckso”.

And, when she told me this, I was very taken aback because it’s not ego-based, but I assumed that because of who I am and how I am, I expect everybody would like me when they met me, because I’m not offensive.  But, because of my gregariousness and my nature, to some people they see that as a reflection of what they’re not. 

That turns them off me, because I’m reminding them of what they’re not; not intentionally.  That’s on them; that’s for them to go away and deal with.  But, they chose to see that as something that was external, “It’s her that’s the problem.  I couldn’t have her helping with my business, because I’m not sure about her”.  Well, actually, it’s going on within.

Wendy Harris: I would say I’ve been in similar situations and know that I’m not perhaps everyone’s cup of tea, and I get that.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: But, that’s okay.

Wendy Harris: That’s fine, because I can’t please everybody.  And anybody that tries is, you know, going to find it hard work.  But then equally, that wouldn’t be the right person for me to work with either?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Correct.  In lockdown, I’ve fallen in love with that aspect of it.

Wendy Harris: Yes.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: I’ve really got to be best friends with that element and really got to appreciate — because I was finding so many different ways to describe what I did and I was like, “What if they don’t know what that means?  What if that puts people off?”

I was just like, “Do you know what, I don’t care; this is it; the coach to your higher self.  If you’ve never heard of what the higher self is –“

Wendy Harris: Google it.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: “– go and find out, or ask me because you’re intrigued.  Don’t just say, ‘What the [beep] that?  What’s that rubbish?'”.  Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it rubbish, doesn’t make it anything else, or any less of a thing.  So, I’ve just decided that’s okay.  That’s okay, my people will come.

Wendy Harris: I think you’re right that we are born into a family, so we don’t choose them, but we can certainly control who we surround ourselves with.  And, I do think there is a lot to be said with the people that you do allow into your inner circle as well?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Absolutely.  And a lot of people, through fear of loneliness, which is another topic that I’ve touched on today, through loneliness will accommodate and allow everything and anything, just so that they’re not alone.

Wendy Harris: Yes, and that’s where bad behaviour creeps in.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yes, that’s when you get your wrong clients; that’s when you get your wrong colleagues; everything, because you are compromising your core values, the very essence of you, which you haven’t actually got to find out yet.  So, people should start with that first as well; find out who the bloody hell you are; who are you, really?  Find out what your core values are and you’ll have a starting point.

Wendy Harris: This all comes out in conversation, doesn’t it?  And, it’s about being able to sit and take notice of the things that you’re saying, maybe for the first time, or maybe you’ve said them a lot, but you’re not really taking notice of what it is that you’re saying that you ought to be doing.  I’ve been guilty of that.  Certainly in the last few years, I have made sure I am only doing the things that bring me joy.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: That’s it.  And it’s unfortunately, I mean, maybe it could come to us when we are younger, but I didn’t have anybody in my circle that could show me the way.  I wish I had known about it more in my twenties and given less of an F.  Why is it that I have to get older and grey round the edges before I start getting like it, you know?

Youth is wasted on the young.  Why am I saying that?  I never thought I’d say that, but it so is.  Why am I finding this out at the age of 48?

Wendy Harris: We’re now speaking like our mum and dad!

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Oh, for God’s sake, you know!  Why am I 48 knowing all of this?  Why wasn’t I 28; why wasn’t I 38?  Because you weren’t and it is what it is.

Wendy Harris: And, priorities are different, aren’t they?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yeah.  What was presenting in life created that moment for you in that time.

Wendy Harris: I truly believe that everything I’ve done until now has brought me to this moment, this very moment, of talking to you, Buckso?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Exactly.  And, I do think about the sliding doors element in life.  Have I had a massively obvious sliding doors moment?  And there has been, and that was when I went into acting 12 years ago.  I could have gone back to the job on the railway that I had before I had the twins 18 years ago; I could have gone back to that job and worked my way up and become a manager and whatnot like I wanted to, because I was quite ambitious.

But, I didn’t.  I chose the route of acting, which was totally alien to me, but it was still something that was in my heart from the age of 14/15, that I had to just still exorcise that demon inside about that.

Wendy Harris: So, that earlier passion won?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: No, it’s been the overarching theme in my life.  It was suppressed, it was buried through life experiences.

Wendy Harris: Or frowned on; not the right thing to do?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yes.  I just put it away because I started work, getting good money; great.  Then I got married, then I had twins, then life took over and then acting wasn’t even in my peripheral, even anywhere on my map.

And then, when I started getting — the kids were about 5/6 and I was thinking, what am I going to do; what do I really want to do?  Went back to doing beauty therapy; really enjoyed that.  That wasn’t enough and I was like, do you know what; I still haven’t done anything with acting.  Maybe I can just go back and be a background artist; at least I’m on set.

And, that’s what I did.  And I did that for a year or two and then a friend of mine introduced me to my current agent, who I’ve been with ever since.  So, the background work I don’t do, I haven’t done for 12 years, and went into mainstream acting that people go to drama school to do.  So, it was that thing.

But, I’ll tell you, now lockdown’s cast another eye upon that and maybe now, I’m having a pivotal moment in my life, where I’m changing direction altogether; not taking the acting away, but the focus has come off the acting and more on how I can be of service now.

I lost my dad in January, which has had a massive impact on the galvanisation of my emotions and thought processes, and has brought me to where I am today.  So, for me, it is very much about, what am I actually doing here; what is my soul’s purpose; what is the very essence of me wanting — because you talk about joy, and joy only comes from you being fulfilled and doing that which is your soul’s desire.  That is what fulfilment is.

When people lead a fulfilled life, they’re doing what their soul wants them to do.  When we are sent these times of grief, whether it’s through the end of a loved one’s life, the end of a relationship, the end of a job that you loved; the end of anything brings about grief and that is a golden opportunity that we don’t see, because we either bury our head in alcohol, drugs, exercise, food, anything to excess to bury it.

Wendy Harris: Denial?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Denial, yeah, because you turn away from it, and you want something to cover up the pain.  But, if we allowed ourselves to let that pain to wash over us, the beauty that’s revealed is — another philosophy of mine that I’ve come to channel this year is the diamond within. 

We’ve all got that diamond inside us but actually, I’m not even talking metaphorically; I’m talking about the 1-4 grams of carbon that are actually in our bones when we die that won’t turn to ashes, you use to grow a diamond; that’s why you can grow a diamond from ashes, because of the 1-4 grams of carbon that remained in the ashes. 

And so, why do we have to die in order to reveal the diamond within?  Why do we have to die when we know that that’s already in us?  There are the dark sides, the hidden facets of the diamond that we don’t show people that could actually bring about a lot more meaning to our lives, and I really do think that people need to talk about death and grief a lot more than what we are doing.

I thought I was spiritual before but, since my dad’s passing, I didn’t have a great relationship with him either, so it’s not like I’m mourning my amazing father.  He was great, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not coming from the place of a close relationship.  But, it still did something to me inside.  It flicked a switch which has changed the whole course of my compass.  My ship has now started to pivot into another direction.

Wendy Harris: It’s similar to when we’re young and time being wasted on the young.  When grief comes and we lose somebody, what actually shifts is the fact that we think we’ve got forever to tell them whatever it is that we might want to tell them, or talk to them about, or learn from them and journal them, or record history.  And then, all of a sudden, it’s gone and that opportunity has vanished.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yeah.  Well, this is it and it’s like, I’ve found out more about who I am since he passed, just from how the emotions have been brought up, what things have been brought up that I’ve had to deal with; learning more about him and who he was.

At the funeral, my sister broke down during the eulogy, so I was stood with her and I just piped up, “Talk to your parents!  They were 25 once; they were 35/45 once; they had dreams and ambitions; find out who they are”. 

Because obviously, my parents are first generation immigrants from India and the whole diaspora that formed as a result of them coming to the UK, they relied heavily on each other.  They’ve been here 60 years and now they are, well they’re falling away, they’re passing away.  So it’s like, hang on, I realise the importance of knowing who they are and what they came here for now, more than ever.

Wendy Harris: What strikes me is that, coming here as a first wave of immigrants, they in fact had to deal with their own form of lockdown.

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Absolutely.

Wendy Harris: You know, it’s not a new thing.  It’s happened to many pockets of society over hundreds and thousands of years of displacement and wars and plague and famine and what have you.  So, it strikes me as odd that we’re complaining now, when really it’s something that is just that wheel that’s turned again, isn’t it?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Well, I mean, I don’t mean to offend anybody when I say this, I’m not the most articulate of people when I get impassioned about what I’m saying, but when we think about us being self-employed individuals now, right, women in business for instance, we get very worried when money’s not coming in; we get very, “Oh, my business isn’t doing very well”, etc.

When my dad came to this country, he didn’t have time.  He had eight people to feed; six kids, you know, my mum and dad and six kids.  And, if there wasn’t enough money coming in, you went and got another [beep] job; did what he had to do.

Wendy Harris: It’s channelling that energy into something productive?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yeah, it was survival, you know.  We don’t have that carnal need for survival, because we’ll get fed somewhere, somehow along the way.  I’m thankful that I’ve got a very supportive partner; he takes care of all the finances and things, otherwise I wouldn’t have the luxury of being able to explore my career choices now in this moment of lockdown, where no money’s been coming in for me at all with the acting world shut down.

But, the beauty of, what was that?  That was ignorance.  That was beautiful, sublime ignorance that they had, because he wasn’t educated.  And he couldn’t tell me that it will be all right.  He didn’t have the TED talks of all these big speakers; your Bob Proctors, your Jim Rhodes.  He didn’t have the luxury of 1,000 books to read from, and, “What do you do in this analytical situation?”.  He didn’t have that luxury.

And, I think that’s the problem with us in today’s society.  We read far too much, we listen to far too many other people, we listen to other people’s opinions of things far too much rather than just thinking, what do I need to do?  I need to bring money in.  What do I need to do that?  I need to go and get a job. 

But, they’re the basics; that’s what they did and that’s what we need to get back to ourselves in business.  Get back to the basics; don’t be too fussed about what your business looks like to other people.  Admit it when you’re having a tough time and celebrate the good times.  But also, know that you’re prepared to do anything. 

I mean, if it wasn’t for my rheumatoid arthritis flaring up this year, I’d have gone out and got a job that was — well, you can’t even.  That’s the thing, it’s like I can’t even get out there and do anything, but I would.  That’s the difference.  My mindset tells me I’ll never go without, my bills will always get paid, because I’m prepared to do anything to pay those bills.

That’s one thing I got from my dad.  I don’t think we realise just how much we look to our parents that are actually our compasses, and we don’t realise that.  We might be going against everything they say, but we don’t realise that I made the choice that I made in life.  I married out of my culture; I married a Caucasian, a white chap, and I did that because of what I didn’t want him to be like, my husband, like my dad.  I didn’t want to be a wife like my mum.

So, everything I did throughout my life, it was what I did or didn’t want them to be like with my parents.

Wendy Harris: You wanted to change the blueprint?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yeah.  And then, he’s gone now, so it’s like, “Oh, right, now what do I do?  Who am I living my life for now?  What’s my benchmark; what am I measuring up?  Everything that I do, every decision that I make now, what am I going to measure it against?” 

So, maybe that’s my pivotal moment, was realising that actually, who am I doing this for now because, whenever I used to sneak out, it would be because I didn’t want my parents to know that I was sneaking off and doing this, that and the other.  And, when I was leading a double life, whilst living with my boyfriend at the time, who’s now my husband, and you couldn’t answer the phone, I was doing that because of that.

And, everything I’ve done was because of this or because of them and because of the culture and what would people think?  Gosh, that lifetime of having that.  And then suddenly, I have what is perceived as freedom, really.

Wendy Harris: You’ve got nothing to rebel against any more?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Yes.  I thought I was no longer rebelling when I made that decision and came out and told them I’m marrying this chap and I lost them.  I lost my culture, my identity and everything, you know.  For seven years, we had no contact.  And thereafter the relationship was not like it ever was; the damage had been done.

And, I was okay with that, because it was a decision I made.  That was a pivotal decision in my life, you know.  And so, this is what I mean.  You think you get the gist of life and you think you know it, and then stuff happens and it’s like, “Wow, I never expected that”.  I never expected to feel this way about his passing, and life in general, and my future, and what am I doing in life; do I need to continue doing this?

What I do know for certain is that I need to be of service; that’s it.  And I don’t mean joining a monastery or a nunnery, you know?  I can’t take a sabbatical from one certain thing, which we won’t go into.  I just know that I’ve got to be of service and I’ve got to make sure that every minute I spend with people are the right people.  I’ve got to make sure that every meeting I attend going forward is the right meeting.  I’ve got to make sure that the clients I take on are the right clients.  I don’t have time to waste; we don’t have time to waste.

Wendy Harris: No.  That is perfectly summed up.  I’m hoping that people listen to that because, if there’s one quote that sums you up to me is, it’s called “the present” because it is a gift.  And, it’s something that I’ve had on my fridge for a very, very long time from a friend yet, when I read it now, not only do I think of that friend, but I always think of you.  I go past the fridge and I always think of you, because that just sums up your whole attitude and outlook to life. 

Buckso, thank you so much for sharing with us today; it’s been amazing to have you.  If anybody wants to carry on the conversation with you, Buckso, where do they find you?

Buckso Dhillon-Wooley: Okay, so you can get hold of me on Instagram, which is, justbuckso; those two words together, justbuckso.  Then, my website: bucksodw.com.  And anybody that comes through and quotes this podcast will get 20% discount for my services that are on the website as well.

Wendy Harris: That’s really generous of you; thank you, Buckso.  I do hope that people take that offer up.  We’ll make sure that we put those details in the show notes for you as well.  It’s been a pleasure talking to you. 

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